An unnamed source is credited in the WAshington Post with leaking some details – and blunt talk – covered in the meeting between Paul Martin and George W. Bush during his visit.
“(Bush) leaned across the table and said: `I’m not taking this position, but some future president is going to say, Why are we paying to defend Canada?’ “
It takes an American president to say what no Canadian politician has ever had the guts to admit.
Sounds like the neighborhood gangster trying to extort ‘protection’ money (or support in our case). The USA are the only people we really have to defend ourselves against. And our military is in a sorry state to do so (and probably always will be). I say we either build nukes and make everyone nervous (Greenland especially), since nothing short would be a true ‘protection of our sovereignty’; or we disband our military altogether and spend that money in more productive ways (i.e. not buying useless token submarines).
I’m open to either option (did you know several South American countries have no military: Panama, Costa Rica, etc..), I’m just not a fan of this useless ‘in between’, costing us money and lives yet not protecting sovereignty in the least.
btw, it’s not a coincidence that the US became the world economic power immediately after nuclear bombing Hiroshima and Nagasaki.
(C)Anschluss, here we come.
Before 9/11 the US had no one we *had* to defend ourselves against.
Bush, Cheney, and Rumsfeld worry me more than Osama bin Laden.
Sure they do.Uh huh.
Why doesn’t Uncle Paulie just do what he’s doing with SSM: Just lie that the Charter guarantees missle defence, and that he, The Great Defender O’ The Charter�, will protect us all from Stephen Harper, who by the way eats babies.
The problem is that we remain in debt to the US taxpayer for funding the bulk of the defense of the North American continent during the Cold War. So long as that business remains unfinished, the US will always be able to point and accuse us of not pulling our weight.
So, if we’re to make a clean break from their military umbrella, lets be intellectually honest about it, and get our bills paid up first.
Using the rough gauge of relative population, let’s offer to reimburse the US 10% of the costs of the Cold War, write the check and then formally advise them that no matter what natural or manmade threat comes to our soil, we do not want their assistance.
Easy? Easy.
This also shows up at canada.com
http://www.canada.com/national/story.html?id=42ce9653-a4d3-4b34-9e88-56ba5b616650
Dubya, the only reason we don’t have anyone to protect ourselves from (awkward phrase) is because the USA is so powerful. Think about it. If the US had the same military strength (or reputation) as France, then there’d be a lot more countries looking to annex North America, in which case I believe Canada’s military would be, necessarily, much stronger. China, for one, would love to take over a large part of North America and move much of it’s large population to larger spaces with natural resources and fields of grain. Oops, they already have invaded – it’s called Hongcouver!
Incidentally Dubya, would you join Canada’s military if the US ever invaded? Would you take up arms against them?
First, Martin figures out he better host a Bush Trip to Canada and try to do some fence mending because Bush won and Canada has to deal with it. Martin might not even last the whole 4 years himself, He attacked Bushes policies before the American election and members of his own Party attacked Bush personally. Better for Martin not to have a active enemy south of the border in the White House who isn’t going anywhere for the next 4 years.
Then the liberal dominated MSM get their collective knickers in a knot and start asking why Martin would meet with who they consider is the most evil man on the planet, They’re worried Bush might say things publicly that goes against their mantra that the US is evil, freedom in Iraq is evil, missile defense is evil….etc…etc…etc. So they start interviewing their own wives, husbands, and best friends, (actually Canadian bureocrats, one and the same) that tell them that some low level official in the US state dept. promises that Bush won’t talk anything of substance while here. The MSM uses this as a new mantra, dutifully reports it to the Canadian people as fact and hopes that they have saved and isolated their darling from US right-wing pressure.
Of course, none of this is based on any kind of reality so when Bush talks, publicly and privately to Martin, they throw another hissy fit and declare Bush lied to us, lets just hope the Canadian people don’t realize that we’re full of sh!t and the Americans will do whatever they want including pressuring Martin to get on board. This totally goes against the MSM’s own view of the world that in in international politics, that Canada matters.
WE see the same kind of fantasy reporting from Canada’s MSM on other issues like Canadian Beef and softwood lumber. They tell us, “the Americans are going to do this or the Americans are going to do that” but it never happens. Last time I saw this kind of reporting, it was in Japan and Germany with their MSM telling the people that they were still winning this battle or that battle the day before they lost and the war ended.
As I’ve said before, in the US we generally think of Canadians as extended relatives. (Which in a lot of cases is literally true.) I doubt that we would ever simply write off a serious threat to Canada.
However it is also true that assessment of threats to the US has changed in character. Now it’s not the Russkies, it’s terrorist states and low-intensity conflict abroad.
Appropriating and planning for our new threats wouldn’t necessarily have to include a Canadian contingency. We might be more concerned about who could be coming across the border.
What we really want in Canada is no different than what Canadian conservatives want. A friendly nation who shares our concerns and works in coordination with us for the welfare and security of North America.
We would also like the Canadian Left to have the same common affection for us that we want to have for Canadians. As everyone who read the Shotgun before Norm took it over probably realizes.
I’m sick to death of home-grown knee-jerk American bashers who posit that everything north of the border is moral high ground. The duplicity of our own government makes Dubya look like an amateur. Just the lost taxes on a little concern called the Canadian Steamship Corp. could significantly boost the “pseudo-military preservers of Canadian hypocrisy” forces.
As to pretense —- er, defense;let’s sever all military connections with The USA and give ourselves a wealth of new linguistic choices:Russian,Mandarin, or perhaps the more exotic Pashtun.We really need a slap up ‘side the head. Does this qualify?
I found this part of the article more telling:
But Bush “waved his hands and remarked: `I don’t understand this. Are you saying that if you got up and said this is necessary for the defence
of Canada, it wouldn’t be accepted?’ ”
I know how you feel George, but you don’t understand it because you don’t live here in the
Deluded Dominion. I know why Paul Martin can’t go to the public and say “This is necessary for the defence of Canada.” Because if he did, then the Liberals would have to admit to the public that CANADA NEEDS A DEFENCE! So far they have been pretty successful in getting everybody
here to believe a defence isn’t necessary for us. Universal day-care, that’s a federal priority, but national defence, not so much.
And if the Liberals admitted Canada needed a national defence, then they would have to explain
to the public how they could have allowed our military to wither into practical uselessness.
“Extended relatives” is good, I grew up thinking “more of us up there” (which I realize nowadays anyway would be offensive to many Canadians). I’ve never thought Canadians “owe” us anything, I gave up on the idea of fair share a long time ago.
But it’s bad enough to have Europe spend so little on defense, use the money on social programs instead and THEN talk about how superior they are to us because of that. When Canada joined the Europeans in that holier-than-thou attitude it’s depressing – you aren’t “more of us” anymore. And every day Canada seems to get to be less and less like more of us.
Makes me wonder if the longest unguarded border in the world has an indefinite future.
And since I brought Europe up, I’d like to see the pres say the same thing to them.
I thik our American Cousins need to hear this… Not all of us Canadians think it’s agood idea to be cosy with Europe.
Many of us are grateful for American Defense.
We should be paying our fair share for that defence.
We hate it when some of us bite the hand of our best friend
Please don’t believe your own MSM’s reports about us being as about ungrateful as the Iraqis, those stories are inaccurate too.
Friends should support friends especially in time of war. I’m angry that our goverment doesn’t do that but be sure, many many Canadians do.
Jay, I have a wife and 2 young boys, I worry for their saftey in this world and I know which side of the bread is buttered. Too bad the Liberal party up here dosen’t. Don’t give up on us
Here in Alberta, we have absolutely learned to hate and detest what this new Canada is all about. As time progresses, and this degradation continues, we move closer to a civil war, which is even the sentiment of a lot of the local military. The sad part is that they wouldn�t have the ability to do anything about it, and you can thank the Liberals for all that as we progress to the end of the democracy cycle.
>btw, it’s not a coincidence that the US became the world economic power immediately after nuclear bombing Hiroshima and Nagasaki.
The contributer, dubya, is manifestly an idiot. The US became a world economic power supplying the Allied engine of war and then being one of the few major industrial economies in full gear and not in ruins by the winter of 1945, irrespective of the development and use of nuclear weapons.
Hey Rob….
You probably wrote that while still ticked after reading the NP story.You’ve got to see though that this is a sign the the Libs are at war with themselves and are breaking up! I otta know since I live in Hamilton and I continue to watch Long Lost Sheila hack away at her own Party, Yea, she’s still at it and won’t give up until Martin is gone.
We all need to ask ourselves what the PM said to Bush that evoked that response from Bush? I’d bet it was…”I can’t geet support for Missle Defense for you here in Canada.” Obviously, Bush knows Missle Defense is the right thing to do, so if Martin got behind it and explained it to his party, goverment, Canadian MSM,and the Provinces then it would be a done deal. Bush basically said to Martin, “Hey Canadian Leader, LEAD!” But Martin can’t, he doesn’t have that kind of power over the Lib Elite. They will try to dump him first. This is an important issue and there is going to be another election soon. The Libs are already trying to say that most important issue will be Gay Marriage.It’s an issue they invented themselves to try to distract from the really important ones like our white elephant subs or the Gomery commission or how they take $10 billon in excess taxes and then tell us it’s for our own good that they get to keep it!
I still believe this is a Parliamentry Democracy here and public opinion is a more powerfulweapon than civil war. Just look at Ghandi and the Russans in 1991 who didn’t have guns either! It’s more important to have places like Small Dead Animals that can keep us informed. The Lib Elite can’t control it like the Toronto Star or the CBC so time is on our side and their days in power are numbered!
Can only hope they tear themselves apart, but it ain’t gonna do much good if the East keeps voting them in!!!! What do we gotta do, drop a missle on there heads to knock some sense into them…. The attitude out here has gone from complacency to anger, and the next level is violence. The Gay issue has really poured fuel on the fire! .. Bush was 100% correct if he in fact made that statement.
Would I join Canada’s military if the US ever invaded? Would I take up arms against them?
It depends… if all the US did was to replace our useless government with their own, and made us into a few new states, I for one would welcome our American overlords. If they were bastards about it, killing, maiming, torturing people, and generally trying to exterminate us, etc… my first thought would be to move, failing that I would probably become what we’re now calling ‘terrorists’ (if you can call a person defending their country on their own soil a ‘terrorist’). While not very brave or principled, I see nothing noble in marching to a certain and pointless death 17th century style against a vastly superior foe.
What I was getting at in the original comment (which actually wasn’t anti-US btw) was that we should either have a *useful* military, or not, based on what we believe is in our own best interests, not because the US *told* us to, and certainly not to *save face* with the rest of the world. There was a call-in show here (Alberta), and some guy suggested that “we have to contribute [to the rest of the world]” as the reason for increasing military spending. Canada may be the only country in the world that wants more military so we can be *nicer* and better global citizens (which seems like a perverse reason to me).
As for the US protecting us, the Monroe Doctrine virtually guarantees that the US will defend the independence of any country in this hemisphere (whether the country likes it or not, i.e. Cuba). If they’re concerning themselves with Haiti and actually threatened little Jamaica for giving Aristide sanctuary, then Canada has nothing to worry about except perhaps the US itself and Greenland (and the US we couldn’t actually do anything about anyway). btw, China is too nationalistic to invade anywhere non-Chinese. There was an American official just on CNN talking about defending Taiwan against China… although I would be very surprised by that, the notion is representative of the trend.
As for being afraid of the Arab world, little Israel annexed itself a chunk of land in the middle of the middle east (‘given to them by the UK/UN’), then fought off 4 major Arab countries almost entirely by itself (with a fraction of the resources), and has maintained itself there for the last 50 years surrounded by its enemies, sovereignty intact.
No prevailing liberal and/or conservative explanations are sufficient to explain or solve the current world conditions regarding the US, the middle east, and terrorism. Liberal vs. Conservative is literally the right hand fighting the left while we miss what’s really happening.
Rob….Chill out man…it’ll happen, nobody can have their head stuck up their butt forever, if they do, they’ll sufocate and the problem is solved!
Dear Dubya,
“(did you know several South American countries have no military: Panama, Costa Rica, etc..)”
Your hankering for splendour brings a tear to my eye.
Yo..Dudya…. It isn’t and never was the US that’s the problem! Why do you Hate the Americans?
All right, this is fun…
On the one hand we got Rob who wants a civil war or at least to nuke Ontario and Dubya wanting to become a terrorist if the Americans don’t do what he likes….of course, all in good fun!
Dudya, you need help, or are beyond it… why should the US be required to defend us? It is neither a requirement or a given that they’ll come to our rescue when we don’t even want to help ourselves. What kind of military only allows there support people 35 rounds a year for target practice, yes you read it right,due to so called costs, when money is bursting at the seams in stupid areas. I, unfortunately, hope the US does not come to our aid , until we come to our senses.
Ok…headshaker .. now officially chilled.. 😉
Hey Rob…
I don’t let moonbats of the tin foil hat brigade get under my skin anymore, I’m sure your idea of nukin me was just a joke…I hope…
Actually, headshaker, it’s not me making the claim. It’s coming from the local military, who are mostly from Quebec, and are choked. They claim they cannot be effective when minority violence starts to occur out east in there own province due to one minority group always having to have more rights and freedoms then they other groups. Basically a struggle for power becoming exponential. Kind of thought they were nuts until I thought about it….
Hey Headshaker
Nukes are a banned material….. right? … 😉
yea…just kidding, it was kind of an overuse of a sludgehammer.
Rob,
To tell ya the truth, I beleive that’s true here too,there are so many people here who don’t see the threat when we have our politicians moving in the opposite direction.McGinty wants to bring in shiara law here!
oh and the moonbats Iwas talking about, Imean these ones:
http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/050121/480/ordr10201210015
The America Haters, you find them everywhere.
Dubya, thanks for responding. Fair points on reasons for having a military. Mark Steyn made a good point about “projecting” your foreign policy across the world as USA does. When 9/11 occurred, the US was able to get their forces to Afghanistan quickly. Canada has to hire foreign planes to transport our eqpt and troops! Since today’s fights aren’t as much against national gov’ts, but ideologies and it’s/their supporters it is important to be able to react offensively (projecting) vs. defensively (let’s hope it doesn’t happen again). If we can’t defend ourselves, then why not just merge with America? Make it a corporate business transaction. I’m sure there’s a few good quotes from 18th C Americans about freedom I could throw in here, but I’m just too dmn la-z to do it!
And you thought I was kidding about a future civil war …. hmmmm….. now ya all know why Alberta is kind of radical… we all be amercianized … so they all hate us too.. 😉
Bacardi
Couldn’t agree with you more. The cost of rebuilding would be ridiculous, not to mention that in basic, the new recruits are not allowed to run anymore because they might hurt themselves… no joke … leasing is the only alternative with our laws.
These are members of the vast left wing minority, who realy cares what they say.
“If they were bastards about it, killing, maiming, torturing people, and generally trying to exterminate us, etc”
Yeah, right – been watching CBC or something? In any war mistakes happen but it’s not like it’s policy or anything, just the nature of the activity that those mistakes happen sometimes.
It would be interesting to see soldiers’ reactions to the deployment tho.
Depressed soldier: “I got Quebec”
Smiling soldier: “I got Alberta!”
Everybody: “You related to the president or something? Who’s ass did you kiss for THAT assignment?”
I’m too old for the army now, but I think anything west and I’d be happy – give me those “red provinces” any day.
Jay,
Huh??…sounds like you have your head stuck in the left wing sand….
Open your mind and look at reality, no one is kissing Bushes ass, but his objectives make sense, and are realistic. The Quebec soldiers here are NOT happy for the reasons mentioned .. they are the ones that are upset about what the feds have done to them… maybe because out here, we live in reality.. read, learn, watch Fox … all will be forgiven when you come over from the dark side .. 😉
Rob, please tell me yer jokin’! They might hurt themselves? I’d heard of the lack of ammo issue before after talkin’ to a guy in the reserves, but still find it hard to believe. I mean, most guys in IPSC (http://www.ipsc.org/) or IDPA (http://www.idpa.com/)shoot off an average of 200 rounds per week and that’s just for fun!
Having said all that, our snipers still hold the longest confirmed kill in Afghanistan, so somebody’s been practicing!
The cost of rebuilding would be huge, but right now we’re running surpluses (sp?) federally which could easily be used up with a new Air Force, Navy and Army technology upgrade. I’m sure someone will say that we don’t have the manpower to run all this eqpt, but I pretty much guarantee that the only reason ppl aren’t signing up for our Armed Forces now is because there isn’t anything worth signing up for! Who wants to join an underequipped Army! Fer cryin’ out loud you can DIE in an Army/Navy/Air Force! Why would I want to die just because some snake in Ottawa wanted to buy off Quebec ad agencies instead of properly equipping me?
Build it and they will come! Equip it and they will join!
Hey Bacardi,
No….ain’t joking, CAN military new recruits are treated like kids, your not allowed to make statements in a harsh tone or anything that might be deemed to be offensive or degrating. As for the rounds issue, that’s support, not front line. Seems to me you would want support to be just as ready in case the front line failed, or am I just old .. :-\
It is true that front line has some of the most accurate shooters there is, but a lot of time is spent in sims now and not pratical.
Right on BB
Hey Kate! What’s your record for comments on a thread?
I think we should push it to 40…. might freak her out… 😉
I’ll help..
p,s, nice site Kate!
Here’s # 40.
A corporal in the PPClI told me this one.
During an exercise at Gagetown, they not only had no live ammunition, they also ran out of blanks.
Making the best of the situation, when one squad attacked another, they pointed their weapons at the attackees and shouted “modulated military noise”.
Note to the geopolitical wizard who singed as Dubya: Panama and Costa Rica are in Central America.
Do you people really think that the Libs will lose the next election? I think the Libs could do anything and I mean anything and still get elcted. Push the right fear buttons at election time (mediscare) and talk about how they have canadian values and no one else does and Ontario follows like sheep. There really is no reason for ontario to change. If I was there I’m not sure I would. Sorry to be off topic but there was some talk of this in the thread. In case you can’t tell I’m a bitter conservative minded person who has pretty much stopped believing in Canada. After the last election the Natural Ruling Party said of people like me that we are ;the forces of darkness and don’t have canadian values. Ontario obviously agreed. I’ve never been a separatist in my life. I wouldn’t waste my time on that because it will never happen, but I now sure sympathyze with the sentiment, Thank you Paul Martin! I’m really a pretty happy person and only get like this when I think about politics which is too much thanks to you Kate! I enjoyed this thread. Forgive my spelling and typos.