Via Cosh, a bizarre blog entry from a woman who is agonizing over having put down their English Setter after it put 40 stitches in the face of her husband. The post is too lengthy to fisk in its entirety, but I’ve chosen some key points;
Since late last summer Pony snapped twice at children who approached her unexpectedly when she was lying down, and once at me when I was wrestling with her on the floor. Until the first incident last August, we had been completely certain that she was flawlessly trustworthy with children and adults alike, and we’d taken her into the homes of friends who had children and encouraged kids in the park to pet and play with her if they showed an interest.
I wish I had a quarter for every time I witnessed completely clueless people encourage strangers to approach dogs that were telegraphing that they really would rather they didn’t. If you’re a typical pet owner with your first or second dog, there’s a 95% probability that you miss or misinterpret most of your dog’s communication signals.
We told people about the breed and that Pony was tolerant and good-natured (if a bit aloof in comparison to a Retriever or a Labrador), and they should have no qualms about approaching and touching her whenever they liked. When she barked and scratched at our friend’s son last summer it was an enormous shock and completely rattled our foundation of trust in her.
The dog was an English Setter. English Setter colour is “extreme white”, with coloured ticking in a genetic pattern that resembles that of the Dalmatian. This is important – the all-white colouring is thought to be the result of a gene that creates a deficiency of neural crest cells, which differentiate to function in several ways – some important, some not. One of the important functions is the development of the brain and nervous system. The least important function is to produce melanocytes, the cells that create pigment in the skin and coat. If the neural crest cell deficiency is extreme, the dog will be unable to create significant areas of pigment, resulting in white hair coat, with pink skin underlying it.
Why is this relevant? Because if there aren’t enough neural crest cells to produce pigment creating melanocytes, there may not be enough for the development of nerves required for normal hearing. This problem is so well known that many breeders test hearing (BAER testing) as part of the veterinary screening protocol before sale. For this reason, it is suspected that (like Dalmatians, Jack Russel Terriers, white Bull Terriers, etc.) that a percentage of English Setters are deaf, or partially deaf. (Which may explain why they seem so tolerant of their own incessant barking.)
So, go back to the top and reread the comments about the dog’s snapping when being approached unexpectedly – the context changes a little. Later in the post, she describes the dog’s “hairy eyeball and some serious stubbornness”. While it’s quite possible that this dog had normal hearing, it is not unexpected behavior from a deaf dog.
Then, she made another innocent error – she consulted “dog experts”.
Subsequent to that first incident, we were told by every dog expert we approached (and we approached several) and dog loving friends alike that the startle reaction we’d seen in her was completely normal, and it was entirely within the realm of regular and expected dog behavior.
The actual existence of the creature known as a “dog behavior expert” is open to question. Most of those who identify themselves as such are well-meaning, delusional incompetents who never saw a problem they couldn’t solve with owner behavior modification. Many of the worst offenders are veterinarians who confuse their medical training with knowledge about dogs. Mechanics and race car drivers aren’t automatically interchangeable. The expert advice continues;
That a small child in an unfamiliar environment was probably seen as another dog infringing on her territory. That the old adage “let sleeping dogs lie” was true and we were naive to think otherwise or expect the breed to be “above” such things.
A dog who cannot tell the difference between a child and a dog is probably dead. That doesn’t mean they won’t attempt to communicate with a child in “dog sign language”, and then discipline them in accordance with their place in pack hierarchy – with devastating consequences.
Nor does a child’s size indicate to a dog that they are harmless and trustworthy. We encourage our dogs to discriminate, to consider some humans as threats, to protect the home and family. It’s their job to be on guard against suspicious humans, and children are bizarre, erratic, bleating humans with flailing limbs – that stare. Children can scare the living crap out of an otherwise reasonable dog.
As time passed the few incidents began to seem like isolated circumstances that wouldn’t recur.
This is the part where every owner who has been complicit in their dog attack injuries reveals themselves to be unthinking idiots. Infrequency of aggression is what permits these animals to remain in homes long enough to complete the final attack. If the aggression were frequent, the dog would have be gone before it had the chance to follow through.
Now, review the previous lesson on “dog experts” before we continue into the other refuge of the unqualified – the “obedience trainer”.
We also joined an obedience class and Pony was the star of the show, partly because she would do anything for treats. Since official obedience training involves a food-as-motivation, Pony was a very quick study and came along in her discipline exceedingly well, and was a favourite of the training instructor.
This is not obedience training. It’s crossover from the leftist school of thought that introduced the world to “child self-esteem” and “positive motivation” and made spanking a punishable crime. Food training is happy happy joy joy… sit for the wiener … so long as the dog isn’t intent on killing the miniature dachshund across the room, taking off their owners arm or anorexic.
Typically, the owners of problem dogs receive less and less assistance until they give up in frustration. If a dog has serious temperament problems, food incentives may produce focus and response to given commands, but it’s just new paint on bad wood. They flake under stress. This dog flaked in the face of her husband.
This afternoon I talked to the mother of the woman here who originally put us in touch with Pony’s breeder, the mother herself a breeder of golden retrievers. She suggested that Pony was reacting to my pregnancy, and that she was displaying a protective testy response.
For every “dog expert”, and every 10 “obedience trainers”, there are a hundred “dog breeders”. Generally, the only thing the consultee knows about them is the phone number they were given. For every genuinely knowledgeable breeder in existence. there are about 100 “backyarders” making money off pet store derived purebreds for quick sale. Guess who you bought your dog from?
Sure, me being pregnant might have been a factor. Like I said, we saw that she was having moments of weird edginess in the last while during which we didn’t bug her to participate or heel,
Owner behavior modification, as noted earlier….
but in general she was a better, more obedient, happier dog since we settled in at home and started the new disciplines and routines following Christmas. The pregnancy was only one factor and it alone couldn’t have caused our dog to attack and take a chunk out of Turner, of all people. Turner: her favourite person in the world, the person for whom she’d dance around and moan and wail when he’d come through the door after being out a few hours, the person for whom she’d come and sit and stay, the only person with whom she’d seriously tug-of- war,
Time to review what I said about dog owners misreading their dog’s actions. Tug of war is a contest in which dominant dogs declare themselves the superior.
the person whose leg was the humping instrument of preference
Another obvious display of dominance.
the person who fed her dinner every day and walked her every day and sang to her every day.
Her servant.
She’d snapped at me once, a month ago, but she savagely attacked and maimed Turner. It was not an accident. It was not a startle- reflex. She was not defending me, the pregnant person – I wasn’t even home. It’s heartbreaking, but our dog was not right, and today she went way, way too far.
No, she wasn’t. Neither are the people who rationalize so many warning signs in the delusion that the way to a happy, sane dog is as simple as “showing them love”.
A situation evolved in which the subordinate was expected by the dog to show proper deference, according to his lower rung on the family pack ladder, with just penalties for insubordination.
Serious acts of insubordination include leaning over the dog’s shoulder area for a “hug” or taking away a toy. In her lengthy explanation, the writer reveals he knew to “discipline” the dog when she misbehaved. An subordinate does not attempt to discipline a superior in the pack without expectation of a fight. Add to this confusion of canine misinformation a dog with possible hearing impairment, poor bite inhibition and matters were not likely to end well.
So, what to do if you’re a confused dog owner with an emerging problem, who doesn’t know who to turn to? Find a professional show dog handler of at least 10 years experience with a variety of breeds, including large guarding breeds. Unlike veterinarians, obedience trainers and garden variety pet breeders, professional handlers routinely take on strange, adult dogs for training, conditioning, grooming, travel and exhibition from a diverse range of owners. They’ve seen it all. They’re pretty good at evaluating behavior and letting you know if the dog is unstable, or if it’s truly reacting to stress according to the normal expectations for that breed. They may also know who to consult about breed specific temperament, vision or hearing problems.
Unlike the garden variety “trainer”, they don’t send you and your poochie home after an hour of “walkies” chirped in their ears. They live and travel with dogs, have no time for nonsense, and train them to perform in stressful, unpredictable environments – large crowds, intact males, bitches in heat in the same ring, strange judges with funny hats who open their mouths to examine pigmentation and count teeth.
Pro handlers are not that hard to find, if you contact a local kennel club for referral. Perhaps you can arrange and pay for the dog to spend a couple of weeks for evaluation. Then, for God’s sake, listen to what they have to say.
Kate, since your site is called ‘small dead animals’ why not call for the “geno” “cide” of all abnormal breeds. People are far too attached to animals. We humans created these monstrousities of manipulative breeding. Many dog (cat, pigeon) breeds would not survive without the coddling and care of people. The premise of evolution is seriously flawed (selection produces new and improved species). Rather, there is a baseline of characteristics within each species from which you can only stray so far. Thousands of years of humans selectively breeding domestic species proves this.
“People are far too attached to animals.”
Gee, Jack, you’re grumpy this morning.
I happen to like dogs – and I believe all that stuff about them being “Man’s best friend.” I’m convinced my mother’s three four-footed pals gave her an extra 10 years of life and a reason to get up in the morning during some pretty rough times.
Yes, there are bad dogs out there and I would agree with Kate that some breeds tend to have congenital weaknesses. However, in my experience, most dogs are what their owners make them.
As for dog attacks, I’m willing to guess you’re still safer venturing to pat an unknown pit bull than driving your car to the 7-Eleven or walking down certain streets here in London (UK).
Being high-order mammals, dogs exhibit many of the personality quirks of people. That results in the occasionally snappy or grumpy hound. However, Mankind seems to have Dogdom trumped in this regard: I’ve met a thousand nasty people for every mean dog I’ve ever encountered.
So I’m sticking with my Miniature Schnauzer, thank you – an expat Canadian like me. We’ll be down at the pub where dogs are always welcome and kids are persona non grata (the Brits do get some things right!).
JJM
Great comments Kate,
It’s always amazing to me when I read about dogs, that they, and most humans actually get along as well as they do.
A tribute to patient dogs.
I plan to do a post on pit bulls one of these days. Considering my background, I think some will be surprised at where I sit on the issue.
As far as “evolution” goes and the fact that domestic breeds of many species wouldn’t exist without support from humans, that’s an irrelevant point. It is also one that sets an artificial line that pretends humans are removed from the natural environment. It doesn’t matter that bulldogs and boston terriers would die in the wild. They aren’t required to survive in the “wild”.
Their evolutionary niche is with man, in the way that other symbiotic species depend upon each other.
I had a long debate once with a biologist who declared that holstein cows were an example of animals that had been so heavily selcted for single purpose use that they would fail in a “normal” wild bovine environment like that of a bison. I countered that was probably true, (though by no means certain), but that if one were to do the same with a bison, her failure would be immediate and total.
He protested that it was ridiculous to say so with arguments about breeding bison for more milk production, until I reminded him that the environment of a dairy cow was a modern milking parlour, and that a bison cow – much less six or eight at a time – was likely to completely destroy the place the first time you attempted to milk her.
Yea okay I was grumpy. Who wouldn’t be? The snow melts and I’m left with two or three gallons of dog flops to pick up in the back yard. If I let my little terrier cross loose the coyotes would have him for lunch. Yesterday it seemed like the right thing to do. Survival of the fittest??
Yea okay I was grumpy. Who wouldn’t be? The snow melts and I’m left with two or three gallons of dog flops to pick up in the back yard. If I let my little terrier loose the coyotes would have him for lunch. Yesterday it seemed like the right thing to do. Survival of the fittest??
Good post, Kate. Not surprisingly, this incident was a hot topic in the English setter community at the recent AKC show.
Thanks Charles. I think there’s a huge degree of misconception about dog breeds – at both ends of the spectrum. One end seems to believe that the only thing that differenciates a pit bull from a poodle is aesthetics and “training”… the other reads a breed standard and the “ideal” sought for in temperament and assumes that all members of that breed will conform to that description by default.
Truly.
From the owner’s blog: “The breed standard for the English Setter is mild mannered, polite, social, excellent with strangers and children, exceedingly gentle.”
IIRC, the American Kennel Club recalled one of its books a few years back because of that sort of fulsome praise for various breeds’ gentleness and suitability for children. I note that the country of origin breed standard says merely: “Temperament: Intensely friendly and good natured” (c The Kennel Club September 2000). Even that ideal shouldn’t be relied on in place of a proper prudence.
Stuff & Things XVI
The faulty technology miasma that’s followed me around for the past week has been getting worse. Not only has my TV been destroyed (OK, Captain Destructo knocked it over, but it didn’t have to break), my digital camera died, and…
Very good post on a very strange article. I read the original and I like to think that some of the symptoms would have raised more of a “red flag” with me. But, I don’t know that they would have. Since you mention it, and because your opinion seems to make more sense than others I have read, is there a reference work you would suggest I read to learn more about the behavior characteristics in dogs??
Thanks,
Greg
Kate et al —
I arrived here via the trackback on my wife’s blog. I’m the husband mentioned in the story you’ve deconstructed above; I’m the one with the fading scars of forty stitches to top and bottom lips, I’m the one who drove the dog to the clinic to be put down, I’m the one who handed the leash to the vet and signed the papers condemning the dog to death. You’ve felt justified in discussing my personal life in some detail, is my point, so forgive me if I ramble on some, or if my choice of words is occasionally less than 100% diplomatic.
I figured since you (and a couple of other people posting herein) have described this situation as “bizarre” or “strange,” that I’d give you a bit more detail on the story – too late, alas, for you to include it in your dissection of our story, which reads to me as more than a bit smug and dismissive (but maybe I’m over-sensitive).
Frankly, I think it would’ve been common courtesy for you to drop my wife a quick email to let her know you were going to be doing an in-depth examination of our story – and thus give her and I a chance to provide further context, and allow you to avoid making some of the inaccurate assumptions you’ve made. And I feel moreover that it was ethically questionable of you to discuss our story in such depth without notifying us and giving us a chance to fill in the gaps, particularly since it appears that you use your blog as a running commentary on mainstream journalism. I’m speaking here as a professional journalist: If bloggers are going to assume the role and authority of adjunct journalists, they should try their best to live up to the profession’s ethical standards. And one of the first rules of journalism is that you don’t run with a story until you give its subjects an opportunity to include their comments. Link to our story without notifying us? Sure. But analyze it at a couple thousand words’ length based on incomplete data?
Anyway. Here, unsolicited, are my comments.
First, you note that English Setters are prone to hearing problems. We were well aware of this. When we adopted Pony at age two and a half, we were provided with a thick sheaf of documentation, including a hearing test which seemed to indicate that she had normal hearing. We had no reason to question the veracity of this, and on subsequent veterinary visits we were told that her hearing was fine. This was also supported by day-to-day life with Pony – she could hear the rustle of a bag of kibble from fifty metres.
Next, you summarize our response to Pony’s first two demonstrations of aggression thusly:
This is the part where every owner who has been complicit in their dog attack injuries reveals themselves to be unthinking idiots.
The implication, intended or not, is that my wife and I are “unthinking idiots.” Quite presumptuous of you, to say the least (and to put it mildly). For the record, Pony’s aggression first occurred in August of 2004, and was directed at the three-year-old son of a close friend, who was left with a very small scratch on his temple, which we believed to be from an errant paw. The incident occurred very quickly, while Pony was lying quietly on a bed with my wife and the child, and because my wife didn’t really see it happen and nothing we’d heard about the breed or seen in our own dog indicated that she was dangerous, it seemed reasonable to assume that the child must’ve startled her and perhaps tugged on her fur too hard or stepped on a paw or something.
Nonetheless, we were deeply troubled by this incident, and took immediate steps to impose tighter discipline on our dog and to find out if we had cause to worry for the safety of ourselves or of children in her presence. Not one bit of the voluminous literature we could find on English Setters indicated that they could be dangerous – numerous books and online sources indicated indeed that the biggest risk to Setters is that they’ll permit children to harm them – and our local obedience trainer, who handles and shows champion Australian Shepherds and knew Pony fairly well, reassured us that even the most docile dog may snap defensively if it feels threatened.
The next incident occurred almost six months later, at Xmas 2004, when my nephew (age 8 and very rambunctious) startled her from behind. This time, Pony only snapped at my nephew – no actual physical contact – but again my wife and I were deeply troubled. We resolved to intensify obedience training, carry on with the much sterner discipline regime we’d recently instituted (based on the one outlined in the book How To Be Your Dog’s Best Friend), and finally decided that Pony had two strikes on her, and a third strike – one more aggressive act toward a child – would be her last. She’d be either given away or destroyed if it happened again. We still had no reason, to my mind, to anticipate her capacity for harm, and continued to search for explanations and could quite literally find not one shred of evidence that Setters could be any more dangerous than she’d already been.
Should we at this point have put out a call to the English Setter breeding community in its entirety, as we did after she attacked me? Maybe. Hindsight’s always 20/20. At the time, though, we’d never heard of a single instance of a violent Setter attack, and so frankly couldn’t conceive of it. This was a dog whose teeth we scrubbed and prodded and brushed, who I nuzzled daily and without hesitation, who with the exception of two snaps at children – both of whom had come up behind her and startled her – had never displayed any kind of tendency toward aggression. We were on guard, but there didn’t seem to be reason for serious concern.
Okay. Now you go on to pull my wife’s warm reminesces about my relationship with our dog out of context and proffer the diagnosis that Pony thought of herself as the dominant dog in our household pack. Here’s where a little bit of extra context does wonders. Pony was, to the very end, submissive to a fault. She shied away from even the smallest and most timid of other dogs. She was easily bested at tug-of-war. At my mother-in-law’s, she took coaxing and encouragement to learn to participate in the pack with their two retrievers at all – and we’d been very pleased with her progress when she’d hold her own at the leftover trough for more than five seconds before standing aside in deference to the other dogs.
With minimal encouragement and training, she learned to come when called, sit when told, get down when instructed. In retrospect, I can see a bit of dominant posturing if I squint hard enough – the occasional leg-hump or tearing at a chew toy – but she was so easily deterred from such activities that I don’t think I could’ve reasonably been expected to determine that she felt dominant in our household. (Maybe I’m ignorant after all, but my understanding is that a dog that thinks of itself as dominant won’t desist from humping one’s leg with a light brushing aside.)
Moreover, we had begun disciplining her much more sternly for her problem behaviours: snapping at my nephew and jumping up on counters to go after food. In each case, as per the Monks of New Skete method, we would lift her by the fur at her neck until she yelped and then issue a stern, barked “No!” and then ignore her for a half hour. In each case, she exhibited remorse – again, my (perhaps misinformed) understanding is that a dominant dog won’t appear cowed after one firm scolding – and she soon stopped going after food on counters.
Okay. Mid-January 2005. A defensive snap at my wife. In retrospect, the third strike. We were in weekly obedience classes, however, and our trainer (the aformentioned handler of champion dogs) didn’t see any serious problem. Still, we undertook to re-train Pony on her crate – which was extremely easy – so that we would have the option, when our child was born, of bedding her and keeping her there if necessary.
Then, about two weeks later, I came through the living room en route to the bathroom one morning. Pony was lying on the couch. Saw me and started to thump her tail happily. I changed course and decided to cuddle with her a bit. At first, no problem. I bent in closer (as I had a thousand times before) and she half-snapped. I was a bit startled. Stayed there, reassuring her. She calmed. I had just awakened, was sleepy. Leaned in again. She came at me, tore a chunk off my lip. And that was that.
Yet again in retrospect, I see that her first little snap was a warning, and that I was too tired and unsuspecting to heed it. But my firm belief, after all of this, is that my wife and I had done a reasonably good job of informing ourselves about the nature of our dog, and that we couldn’t have anticipated the ferocious attack I sustained. The response of most of the Setter community that we’ve heard from – surprise, shock, sadness at our loss, encouragement not to think ill of the breed as a whole – reassures us that we had the struck-by-lightning misfortune of adopting a dog with some sort of deep-seated agression impulse. Some have suggested a thyroid condition, others an ill-defined “rage syndrome.” We’ve been told (after the fact) that similar aggression tendencies existed elsewhere in the breeding line, starting with Pony’s grandfather. (My wife will happily supply Pony’s geneology to concerned breeders and owners of English Setters; contact her through her website: http://www.ashleybristowe.com/weblog.)
I mention all of this mainly so that readers of your site – I gather there are quite a few – have enough information to evaluate our situation (and theirs) accurately. Would they have reacted differently in our situation? Would you, if you weren’t previously involved with the breeding/show-dog community? Your advice seems fair on the surface – and great in retrospect – but how many people think, upon running into a seemingly small defensive-aggression reaction in an otherwise gentle and calm dog, that they should distrust the advice of published guides to the breed and the counsel of their local trainer and instead seek out someone with ten years’ show-dog handling experience? At what point does the onus cease to be on the buyer of a dog and fall instead to the breeder? And at what point, moreover, does the illusion of our control of animals fall away entirely? At one point do we permit the possibility that even a fairly cautious and careful and responsible dog owner may wind up with a bad dog?
I don’t disagree with your advice, Kate, I just reject the notion that my wife and I were “unthinking idiots” not to have come up with it on our own.
Apologies for the wordiness of this response, but I’ve invested too much time and painful emotion in evaluating the events that led to my being attacked to see it glibly dismissed, in any forum, as the result of my own complacency or willful ignorance.
Apart from pointing out to you that a publicly available post on a blog is considered fair game for discussion, and that the trackback is more than ample alert, I didn’t mean to imply that you were any more or less clueless than many other dog owners. But you were at fault for rationalizing this dog’s behavior, altering your own demands of her to suit her mood, and of not putting her down much earlier.
It’s that owner “responsiblity” that gets paid so much lip service these days.
When I have time, I may respond to your other points in more detail. bottom line – people who rationalize and tolerate dangerous warning signs as you did often end in harming someone else. Frankly, knowledgable dog people have to be a lot more straight with you.
You were not qualified to deal with a dangerous dog. You were either too dense to realize it or too delusional to deal with it.
Don’t expect sympathy from everyone. I have a scar on my lip from an encounter with a small dog when I was a preschooler, riding a tricycle on a public sidewalk. It could have just as easily been a large deformity.
I’ve been following this story as a concerned English setter owner. I shuddered at the use of “scruffing” a dog as per the instructions in the Monks of New Skete. I do not have a copy of the book so I cannot verify this method but it is not something I would recommend. There are more humane methods. Anyone who asks me for a good training book is directed to Brian Kilcommons” “Good Owners, Great Dogs”. He has commonsense advice and does not avoid aggression issues. His angle is the pack hierarchy and that dogs look to their owners for leadership and will take on that role if no one else appears to do so. Also, dogs are not capable of showing “remorse” or “guilt” or understand consequences. They will show fear when the owner is angry because they can read subtle or not so subtle body language and react.
The estimated incidence of unilateral or bilateral deafness in English setters is 10%:
http://www.esaa.com/breedfaq.html
Kate is quite correct on the necessity of excluding deafness as a possible cause. If the BAER test did that, great.
“ENGLISH SETTER RESCUE WILL NOT ACCEPT OR PLACE ANY DOG WHO IS TEMPERAMENTALLY UNSAFE OR WHO HAS SHOWN ANY AGGRESSION TOWARDS PEOPLE!”
http://www.esaa.com/resfaq.html
The fact that the ESAA, the American breed club, includes aggression in its Frequently Asked Questions for rescue dogs and emphasises its position with coloured, upper case text should indicate to you that it may be a problem.
“Not one bit of the voluminous literature we could find on English Setters indicated that they could be dangerous…”.
“…we’d never heard of a single instance of a violent Setter attack…”.
“…that they should distrust the advice of published guides to the breed…”.
Reading up on a breed — preferably before getting the dog — is a good and necessary step. It is no substitute for meeting the dogs, breeders and owners in the flesh and asking pointed questions about real world experience (not just aggression — genetic problems, grooming, exercise needs, the whole bit). That is one reason why most breed guides recommend that people attend dog shows, etc., before even deciding on which breed interests them.
Supplemental — “Management for Temperament”, from the English breed club:
http://www.englishsetterassociation.co.uk/1996_booklet.htm
Kate —
Never asked for your sympathy. Just thought I’d point out that even though postings you find on people’s personal blogs might well be “fair game,” I think it’s professional courtesy – not to mention plain old good manners – to actually engage someone directly and perhaps politely ask for permission before discussing their personal life in detail. If, for example, I got it in my mind to pluck a bunch of jpegs of your airbrushing work off your website to post to my blog and critique in detail, I’d probably drop you a line to let you know. And I’d probably ask you for a bit of background info so I didn’t misrepresent your work when I discussed it. But then again, that’s just my opinion as a journalist and netizen. I wouldn’t really expect a fan of American right-wing talk radio to share this opinion.
Josee — The discipline regime recommended by the Monks of New Skete is part of their whole philosophy of communicating with your dog in the language of a pack animal as much as possible. Their argument is that it’s more humane to discipline your dog the way the alpha male in the pack would than to use methods that only leave your dog hurt because you’re angry at it without knowing why. Made a lot of sense to us, so we decided to try it. They address at length the notion that physical discipline is inhumane, and I found their rationale convincing. Not that it mattered in the end.
Charles —
Thanks for the links, but you’ll notice that while the ESAA mentions that it won’t place aggressive Setters, it doesn’t give any sense of the severity of the risk posed by them. There’s an enormous gap between “We Won’t Accept Or Place Any Such Dog” and “A Setter Who Displays Aggressive Impulses, Even Just Once Or Twice, Is An Imminent Danger of Tearing Your Lip Off.” Not to mention the fact that our dog displayed no aggressive behaviour until after we adopted her. (As far as we know, that is, and we had two lengthy pre-adoption meeting-interviews, first with a friend of the breeder who was boarding Pony, then with the breeder, and had no reason to doubt their repeated assurances, as dog people and parents of small children, that Pony was a wonderful and gentle dog, and that the only reason they were giving her away was that her hips were AKC-rated “very good,” and the breeder only bred Setters with “excellent” hips. And yes, we were in possession of a BAER test confirming normal hearing from the day we adopted her.)
Both my wife and I searched, at length, for any evidence of violent attacks by English Setters, and couldn’t find any. We also enrolled in obedience training and trusted the advice and reassurance of the dog trainer. Maybe we should’ve looked harder, maybe we weren’t “qualified” to conduct the search and assess our own situation, but we did as much as I think a non-professional dog owner can reasonably be expected to do. And nothing – nothing – we found indicated the severity of the risk that it turned out we were facing. I frankly doubt that even a professional English Setter breeder would’ve anticipated it, and certainly numerous breeders have contacted us directly to tell us just that.
It’s been a long week and for what it’s worth, I pretty much stated my case in the original post. It is incorrect to consider a publicly accessable blog to be “personal”. BTW – I don’t know that any of the hundreds of people who have trackbacked my posts have ever asked me for permission or a second chance to explain what I was writing about. That said, much of my original post was directed, not to you, but to others who might find themselves in the same situation. Frankly, it was too late for you.
” Their argument is that it’s more humane to discipline your dog the way the alpha male in the pack would than to use methods that only leave your dog hurt because you’re angry at it without knowing why.”
A bunch of crap written by people who either haven’t witnessed an “alpha” disciplining a subordinate, or won’t admit to it. There is no such thing as a “scruff shaking” in the land of dogs. I would better describe it as “laying them low”, with the subordinate laying on his back, begging for mercy. There may or may not be blood involved.
My own breed (or at least my line) has trememdous bite inhibition and pack heirachy is established without any injury whatsoever.
In other breeds, bite inhibition is much lower, or selective breeding results in diminished discrimination, and what starts out as pack “discipline” ends in dead dogs.
And that doesn’t even take into account that what seemed like a vicious attack due to the consequences (a chunk out of a lip) was really little more than a “snap” that finally hit paydirt.