Pieter Dorsman has translated portions of an interview with Dutch writer Leon de Winter on the difficult choices Europe is facing in confronting Islamic terrorism;
We have created a society based on laws in which our freedoms are anchored. The downside is that terrorists take advantage of these laws to organize themselves. If our existence is at stake, and that is the way I see it, than you shouldn’t be paralyzed by your attachment to your legal system, because that is precisely what the radicals are counting on. I do think that you should draw a line when it comes to applying physical violence to prisoners, but there are other techniques that have better results than violating someone’s physical integrity. I would lie if I said that we should reject them all.
[…]
We have to demand that the Muslim community will start to be open and honest. I really can’t imagine that you somehow fail to see that certain youths in your environment all of a sudden become fundamentalist. As a Muslim, you shouldn’t praise that, you should be afraid of that. Muslims will have to start co-operating with our police organizations, with people that do not believe in their God and who live in a very different world.
The quotes reminded me of a chapter in James H. Gray’s 1966 Canadian classic on the Depression – The Winter Years. Gray writes about Paul Ausborn, a “man who heard voices”, who had fled Germany for Manitoba when they told him that Hitler would lead the world to war ;
Through his old connections with the Social Democrats in exile, Ausborn obtained a large collection of pictures of the atrocities being committed by the Nazis in Germany. He rented a store on Logan Avenue to show his gallery of infamy to Winnipeg. Nazi sympathizers wrecked his exhibit. He started over and put another exhibition together. At the same time, he scoured the German Canadian community for supporters and could find only a handful. …. Unhappily, Ausborn was overwhelmed again and again by the force that the Nazis were exerting on the German population of western Canada, and by the lack of interest in his work on the part of other Canadians. He was beaten up by Bundists, and harried by city policemen who saw nothing wrong in Hitler, because the only people Hitler was bothering were Jews and Communists.
As an indication of Ausborn’s physical courage, he and two young friends once invaded a huge pro-Nazi picnic and distributed 6,000 anti-Nazi pamphlets and miraculously escaped unharmed. But in his efforts to rouse the city to the menace of Naziism, he lost every battle, every skirmish even. Nazi agents, on the other hand, infiltrated the university, the schools, the churches, and every other part of the German community. Ausborn was ostracized by the Germans, most of his family deserted him, and with his money gone he was reduced to living on relief.”
By the time hostilities broke out, “Ausborn’s stock rose”, albeit briefly. Germans, including some of his supporters, were being sent to internment camps. A piece of Canadian history that few have been told of, and that is well worth revisiting to help place current debates (and WWII revisionism) into historical context.
Thanks for this Kate. This educated Canadian had never heard of Ausborn- a real Canadian hero.
The similarities between WWII anti-war sentiment and the anti-liberation sentiment today are of immense interest to me.
yes, american and canadian nazi sympathizers were the worst of human scum, especially people like henry ford, charles lindberg and of course prescott bush, grandfather of george W bush, who actually bankrolled the nazis in the early thirties and retained finacial connections with germans nazis industrialists through out the war and into the 1950’s, even after bush was convicted and sanctioned by the US government for violating the american “trading with the enemy” act. the bush family fortune solidified with money made off the nazis, made helping with the investment of money taken from german jews as I recall. nice folks, those bushes, now they make money selling weapons systems used in iraq, a war their own son started. all the while dick cheney’s unexcersised halliburton stock options continue to gain momentum as halliburton defrauds americans and iraqis out of billions with equal vigor…brilliant, really. i’d be super into it, if it weren’t for my little buddy sargeant Mark Maida, who died a few weeks ago near bagdad,while doing his duty. he liked puppies and his mom and his girlfriend too. so, what all this reminds me of…is the bard’s King Henry.
Interesting find, re Ausborn. There may well be parallels.
On a related topic. I was thinking about the objections we see to the suggestions that the Muslim community, whatever that means since very few communities are homogeneous in their views, publically condemn Islamacists.
While I understand some of the concerns. As I said the “community” is never of one voice. The Islamicists do not speak for them, of that you can be reasonably sure.
However, I was wondering at a parallel in my world, being white, ostensibly Christian, and protestant. Well, the radicals in my “community” would be the KKK.
Do I need to condemn them? I dont need to on a daily basis because it is pretty clear that they are off on a limb on their own, and they are a spent force. But that is only becasue so many have condemned them in the past, in particular “their own community leaders” So when the force of the US government, which lets be honest in the 50’s and 60’s was 99% white and protestant, condemed them then thats about all that was required.
Would I condemn the KKK publically, of course. Have I, yes! Would I have any issue if someone asked me to again, not at all. Should I be expected to any time there is a KKK action, well I guess if they were active in my area and claiming to speak for me in the area then I guess I would feel compelled to. Many of my neighbours arent white, arent Christian and likely not pretestnat even if they are Christian. I wouldnt want my neighbours to think I supported or thought this kind of crap.
Should I be expected to inform on KKK activities if I was aware of them, esepcially if they involved plans for violence, most definitely.
So should the community leaders of islam speak out and condemn the islamacists…defintiely…
Here is the other reason why Muslims need to condemn them. My condemnation doesnt matter, even if I were Chief Justice, or the police chief, or the prime minister….I am not muslim and by definition to islamcists my opinion doesnt count. The ONLY opinion that MIGHT count to them is a condemnation and shunning from within their “own community”. Of course one even wonders if that would help given the extreme chauvinism and flexible interpretations of what a muslim is, that these people employ. (you dont agree with me then you arent a real muslim, being an islamicist means never having to say your sorry)
So am I expecting the same of others as I expect, and is expected of me. I would say yes.
There is no reason why Muslim community leaders should have ANY issue with condemming ISlamcists and those who claim to be committing violence in their name.
Silence, or hesitation, unless it is being coerced (which your post hints at) is a silent approval and allows this to flourish. There is no victimhood in stating your opposition, even if you disagree with those who “the defenders” are attacking.
The “Community of Canadians” is right to expect Canadian Muslims to condemn and distance themselves, is right to expect them to inform on “their own’ if they are planning violence against others. It isn’t prejudice or collective guilt but the responsibilities of being a member of the “Canadian Community”.
Excellent post Kate, but
I noticed there were no referals to my blog on this subject…ho hum 🙁
Since I was part of, and left the Muslim community in August 2001, I think there is some pretty good insight into many of my posts, in particular, ‘Will the Real Islam Please Stand Up?’, which I forwarded off to the BBC and New York Times almost 2 weeks ago.
The Hamilton Spectator’s editorial editor has a copy of it as they were “waiting for my response” to a letter from a Muslim guy…but I have not been contacted by the editors of the Spec as of yet (one is on vacation)
To get more insight, the reader has to go deeper into the posts, such as ‘Bombers Not Very Bright’ or ‘Other Bombings Examined’ etc etc etc to get my story as it relates to this subject.
What I did want to post that is off topic is the CP’s latest platform adoption, which is a tax exemption or tax deduction for public transit users.
http://habamusrodentum.blogspot.com/2005/08/public-transportation-tax-deductions.html
All the best,
HR
I can’t read them all…. that’s what trackbacks are for!
Instead of just posting your url’s, why not update them with trackback pings?
hmmm; Bush financed the Nazi’s….
I knew I had heard that before, and it seems (like always) it�s not as clear as that;
http://www.straightdope.com/columns/030214.html
Mind you, this is not as definitive as say, Wikipedia…
most of the sources don’t take into account the most recent info from dutch prewar intelligence services that was recently unearthed about bush’s role, nor the recent info that bush actually kept doing business with the same german industrialists into the 1950s, even after his conviction….like kate’s story, its been a little reported part of american history. then there is henry ford and opal…
John Loftus on the Bush-Nazi scandal. (He forgives GWB.)
http://www.john-loftus.com/bush_nazi_scandal.asp
From what little I was able to stomach of the Loftus stuff, it is just historical drivel. Planning something in Auschwitz well before WW II? Nuts.
Just a sample: “the Robber Barons looked for a middle ground in eastern Poland for a future factory site. It had to be in the coal fields of Silesia, on the banks of the Vistula river, where a canal could be dug to ship materials in cheaply from Russia. The Polish town was named Oswieczim, later known to the world by its German name: Auschwitz.”
Auschwitz was in western Poland before WW II. Enough said.
It was in fact part of Germany during the war, having been annexed. It was part of Prussian Upper Silesia until the end of WW I.
http://www.nationmaster.com/encyclopedia/Upper-Silesia
Mark
Ottawa
Mark, Ottawa: thanks for the research on Loftus. I had him bookmarked as he has some interesting comments on various things. So interesting that they need to be vetted and I have not done that yet. Looks as if his veracity may be sub-par.
The dangerous/traitorous Galloway: Oil from Saddam
THE MIDDLE EAST MEDIA RESEARCH INSTITUTE
Special Dispatch Series – No. 948
August 4, 2005 No.948
British MP George Galloway in Syria: Foreigners Are Raping Two Beautiful Arab Daughters – Jerusalem and Baghdad
The following are excerpts from interviews and a speech by British MP George Galloway [1], which aired on various Arab channels on July 28 and 31, 2005. To view this clip http://memritv.org/search.asp?ACT=S9&P1=788.
Galloway on Syrian TV, July 31, 2005
Galloway: “Mr. Blair is using this crime and all these dead people as a justification for this absurd idea of a war on terrorism. ‘Terror’ is a word… Terror is a tactic, it’s not a strategy. The idea that Muslims have some kind of sickness in their bodies, which must be cured, which is the idea behind Bush, behind Mr. Blair, and behind Mr. Berlusconi’s government in Italy – It must be resisted. It’s not the Muslims who are sick. It’s Bush and Blair and Berlusconi who are sick. It’s not the Muslims who need to be cured. It’s the imperialist countries that need to be cured.
[…]
“The real question is, after the evidence of Sykes-Picot 1, are you ready to accept Sykes-Picot 2? What does Sykes-Picot mean to the Arab world? Nothing except division, disunity, weakness, and failure. Two of your beautiful daughters are in the hands of foreigners – Jerusalem and Baghdad. The foreigners are doing to your daughters as they will. The daughters are crying for help, and the Arab world is silent. And some of them are collaborating with the rape of these two beautiful Arab daughters. Why? Because they are too weak and too corrupt to do anything about it. So this is what Sykes-Picot will do to the Arabs. Are you ready to have another hundred years like the hundred years you just had?”
>> link from newsbeat1.
Thanks for the heads up , sarge.
It’s important that the evils of the Bush family are exposed the cleansing light of day.
Were you aware that Prescott Bush’s grandfather was a class mate of Bram Stoker at Trinity College, Dublin?
It’s rumoured that Stoker was inspired to write Dracula after an incident he shared with Bertram Oliver Ogden Bush.
Late one night, when returning from a night of debauchery, their Hansom cab ran over a poor wee naif. Instead of summoning medical help, great, great , great grandfather Bush wrapped the lad up in his cloak, took home and ate him for breakfast, with a side of oatmeal!
Good luck in demanding openess and honesty in the muslim community. Many would much rather cut off some white guys head with a bread knife than work to stop the vicious circle of hate. The muslims that could allow themselves to be more “open and honest” are either too afraid or can’t be bothered. There are however, a few brave believers that do speak up…and that’s what gives me a shred of hope…
Nevertheless, ever try getting a male arab driver’s (presumably he was a young muslim) licence number after getting ploughed into by his van while waiting at a red light at 11 pm at night? That’s a verbal circle jerk that no one needs to waste twenty minutes of breath over. They won’t take responsibility for anything they’ve done wrong – even the blatantly obvious.
Didn’t Great-Grandpa Bush splice the hemophilia gene into Queen Victoria’s royal line? I think he had some help from his bumbling hunchbacked assistant Algore.
Martin B: Actually it was his Arab sidekick Algorithm (great sense of).
Mark
Ottawa
maz2: “What does Sykes-Picot mean to the Arab world?” Actually it meant release from Ottoman rule after World War I. And shortly after World War II complete Arab independence, in their several states.
Efforts, by Arabs, to unite the several states, have since failed. Note the United Arab Republic of Egypt and Syria that lasted only from 1958-1961.
How awful. Bring back the Ottomans.
Mark
Ottawa
How about westerners all go to these other countries and move there… take all their good jobs and take control of their countries. Guarantee citizenship to newcomers and offer them full protection under the law… for all people that can manage to find their way over there. Ooops… I forgot that is only a one way street and it doesn’t go the other way.
Martin B, your disinformation campaign is so transparent!
“Didn’t Great-Grandpa Bush splice the hemophilia gene into Queen Victoria’s royal line?”
That’s a smoke screen laid down by Karl Rove as cover for the Bush family being responsible for the start of WWI.
At the time, the Bushes were living on the East Coast with heavy investments in the sea food indusry. In the hope to end the Hapsburgs’ stranglehold on the Persian caviar trade, they hired an assassin to kill Archduke Ferdinand!
They never intended to start the Great War but in a strange twist of fate they benefited from it many years later.
With the subsequent interruption of Persian pomegranate production, the price of Grenadine sky rocketed.
This allowed the struggling orchard owners around Galveston to become incredible wealthy overnight.
In Texas, a favour is never forgotten and these Galveston Grenadine tycoons financed the early Bush political campaigns.
Brian Walsh,
“How about westerners all go to these other countries and move there….”
I can’t make heads nor tails of your post.
Are you referring to Madagascar?
I especially appreciated the dance number whose entire lyric is:
I like to move it move it
I like to move it move it
I like to I like to I like to [pause] move it.
“Ooops… I forgot that is only a one way street and it doesn’t go the other way.”
I hope that you’re not behind the wheel right now.
An excellent column in the NY Times today by David Brooks, “Trading Cricket for Jihad”:
http://www.nytimes.com/2005/08/04/opinion/04brooks.html?th&emc=th
Excerpts:
‘…We have learned a lot about the jihadists, from Osama bin Laden down to the Europeans who attacked the London subways last month. We know, thanks to a database gathered by Marc Sageman, formerly of the C.I.A., that about 75 percent of anti-Western terrorists come from middle-class or upper-middle-class homes. An amazing 65 percent have gone to college, and three-quarters have professional or semiprofessional jobs, particularly in engineering and science…
In other words, the conflict between the jihadists and the West is a conflict within the modern, globalized world. The extremists are the sort of utopian rebels modern societies have long produced.
In his book “Globalized Islam,” the French scholar Olivier Roy points out that today’s jihadists have a lot in common with the left-wing extremists of the 1930’s and 1960’s. Ideologically, Islamic neofundamentalism occupies the same militant space that was once occupied by Marxism. It draws the same sorts of recruits (educated second-generation immigrants, for example), uses some of the same symbols and vilifies some of the same enemies (imperialism and capitalism)…
In short, the Arab world is maintaining its nearly perfect record of absorbing every bad idea coming from the West. Western ideas infuse the radicals who flood into Iraq to blow up Muslims and Americans alike…
…the jihadists’ weakness is that they do not spring organically from the Arab or Muslim world. They claim to speak for the Muslim masses, as earlier radicals claimed to speak for the proletariat. But they don’t. Surely a key goal for U.S. policy should be to isolate the nationalists from the jihadists.
Third, terrorism is an immigration problem. Terrorists are spawned when educated, successful Muslims still have trouble sinking roots into their adopted homelands. Countries that do not encourage assimilation are not only causing themselves trouble, but endangering others around the world as well. ‘
Mark
Ottawa
Mark, here’s another take on what you’ve written so well about. The University educated terrorists may have been sent to those institutions of higher learning with future missions in mind. I knew an Iranian Engineering student that failed basic first year chemistry again and again over at least four years. He was not a stupid man but clearly not especially keen to demonstrate an aptitude in chemistry. So did he really want to take a class a dozen times or was there outside pressure being applied to him to move through the curriculum towards an end that he lost his nerve for? I know…conspiracies are everywhere…but it’s an interesting thought that Al-Qaida may have been training its’ terrorist army starting well into the 1980’s.
Martin B.: Wrote nothing, just selected and edited.
Mark
Ottawa