36% of Western Canadians consider separation an option – including 43% of Albertans.
Updated: Full poll breakdown here.
105 Replies to “No Longer The Fringe”
Does a separated western Canada accept ‘refugee applications’ from white, anglo-saxons yet?
This is what happens when the provincial and federal conservatives have a political strategy that demonizes “Ottawa”. It helps conservatives get elected but over time people hate their country. It is truly sad that conservatives will do anything to get elected.
If I thought for one minute that folks in atlantic Canada and Ontario could be convinced that the Federal Liberal party was destroying the fabric of our Nation I would not support the breakup of Canada. They can not be swayed. I have worked and lived all across our nation. Nothing we can do or say will get those folks to care about the rest of us. We need to go our own way and form our own Nation. We don’t need to become American nor do we need to be anti-american. We can become a Nation Free and fair for all, with an identifiable and defendable culture.
aa. Goodbye. Been nice knowin’ ya’.
I hope, if the time ever comes, that my government backs such a movement. I’m seriously afraid they will not out of their timidness.
I also hope the Eastern half will get tired of sniffing so much crap and things will change and as long as elections are fair, they will.
aa Surely you jest.
If not I can only wonder in what world you live. The 2004 general election demonized Alberta in every possible way. PMPM campaigned to solve western alienation, and yet has done more to fuel this fire in less than 2 years as PM than any previous leader did in their whole term in office. Separation is definately one solution perhaps a bit more final that PM had in mind – but I’m OK with that.
That anyone is surprised by these poll results is shocking to me. I’ve been saying this about the mood in Calgary for months – I have also told my friends in Ontario that if they really care about this country they better wake up because we’ve lost interest in staying.
I wonder what question was asked and how many people participated in the poll. Don’t get me wrong-I’m originaly from Alberta. I think however that seperation from the Liberals (nationwide) is a better answer to the problem.
sheila. I lived in Calgary for many years. Then moved with my family in 1973 and built a house on the shores of a lake in south central BC. If a viable movement gets started and a viable provincial party formed, I will move back just so I can vote ‘yes’. It will be interesting to see if BC follows. There are so many NDPers and Libs here that I’m not at all sure they will.
Those answers are available on the links provided.
AA,
How appropriate, I beleive the first step is acceptance that you have a problem, you are still in denial.
In the words of John McEnroe “You cannot be serious”
Conservatives will do anything to get elected? Like ignore non-confidence motions, spend an additional $4.7 Billion they didn’t have just two weeks earlier, sell off Cabinet seats and on and on and on.
As for demonizing, you should refers to Sheila’s post.A short memory seems to be the Librano strong suuit
John
You better get out of BC before that union mentality overruns the province – you’ll be paying for those 2010 Olympics for a very long time if you don’t.
aa. Goodbye. Been nice knowin’ ya’
Typical liberal asshole. Brain drain? Who cares! Province wants to leave Canada? Who cares!
The liberals sure are doing a good job of destroying Canada. If Alberta leaves then it is only a matter of time before Canada completely falls apart. But then again, who cares!
Hey Sheila, remember when Calgary hosted the Olympics… and (while hosting the “Best Games Ever”) turned a profit? Ahh those were good times…
Of course, I think you’re right; I expect BC to follow Montreal’s lead rather than Calgary’s.
This is what happens when the provincial and federal conservatives have a political strategy that demonizes “Ottawa”. It helps conservatives get elected but over time people hate their country. It is truly sad that conservatives will do anything to get elected.
Now that was the funniest damn shit I’ve read in a long time. Please AA, step back into this universe. The alternate one has fried your brains.
The prospect of separation at least in Alberta is now being discussed in rational discussions. Unfortunately, Alberta has not been well treated by federal Liberal governments and has had comparitively sensible provincial governments (except Ralph seems to have unofficially retired already)
The frustration is specifically with federal liberals. Alberta is simply getting impatient for an effective federal government. I’ve seen westerners ask “what is the benefit of Canadian confederation to the west?”. Some quick tangible answers are the RCMP, the Banff/Jasper national park system, the rail system across Canada, and the ability for our companies such as oil and mining companies and Westjet to operate across Canada. Our medicare system, although several underfunded, is better than that of the U.S. Personally, I love the fact that I can travel and speak some French when needed.
If the tensions between Edmonton and Ottawa remain the same or get worse with the oil sands ramping up, this could become a serious issue in a decade or two. We hafta keep the faith in Alberta that conservatives will form a government.
Whether of the good old-fashioned Quebec variety or based on “Western alienation,” all separatism is essentially the politics of denial.
Denial in the sense that separatists always presume they can have their cake and eat it too; that somehow their standard of living, the economy and the social framework of the state will continue regardless – though that state has been fundamentally altered or no longer even exists.
This is wishful thinking and contrary to the only constantly true law in human affairs: the Law of Unintended Consequences.
I would only point out that while Alberta is a “big cheese” in the Canadian economy it could only be a “little cheese” in the American one. Some 30 or so US states have bigger populations than Alberta.
Which do you want? A 10% stake in Canada or a 1% stake in the US?
Mike Brock said it best:
“The problem with Canadians and unity is not the Bloc Quebecois or Western rednecks; it’s that we simply don’t believe in unity. We think we can have Canada without the Canada.”
I too am fed up with the Liberals and their endless shenanigans. But Canada is more important than them or my feelings about them.
I’m a Canadian. Period.
Brian
The conservatives have been shut out since Brian Mulroney and even BM didn’t do much for us after scrapping the NEP. If you read the full article Kate linked to it shows all the options (but the Firewall) have already been tried. Further, less than two weeks ago the Libs did an end run around the CO2 bill that was rejected in the budget. MSM has not reported this very well but Candace at PlanetX (someone else can find that post and link to it) and a few other Blogs reported it. A Carbon Tax is around the corner so these numbers are going up. I don’t think this is about electing conservatives; most of us have outgrown that notion. I believe that we’ve moved on to the idea that the change has to come from us and from within. (Alberta Agenda&Firewall or Separatism)
Ed
You better believe I remember the 88 Olympics — some of the memories are a bit fuzzy …
Yah, I am aware of the stunt regarding the definition of CO2 as a toxin even after the committee rejected the proposal. Any kind of carbon tax would be a deal breaker for Alberta.
To be clear, I would answer Yes to this question. Of course, Alberta needs to evaluate alternatives. The firewall concept by Morton needs to be considered first. As a province and as a region, we need to develop policies to promote independence WITHIN Canada….if the carbon tax doesn’t materialize. This is as much about the inaction of our provincial governments as it is about the feds.
“Which do you want? A 10% stake in Canada or a 1% stake in the US.”
Why do you anti-separatist always assume we want to be american. Alberta has a population almost as large as Finland or Norway, a larger land mass than either, and a stronger ecomony than either and yet they seem to make a success of being countries.
As for the comment on the lower standard of living … No pain, No Gain. However, just to clarify my personal views, many months ago I commented on this very blog that Ted Morton’s Alberta Agenda/Firewall will be the moderate position in Alberta- I still believe that!
Separatists, Unite!
Let’s analyze the latest poll by the Western Standard, which is hosted HERE and HERE by Nealenews, shall we?
The poll found that the most pro-separatist age category was the 18-29 age bracket, which I fall into. I can see the reasons why younge…
Which do you want? A 10% stake in Canada or a 1% stake in the US?
10% of Enron or 1% of Exxon?
“Which do you want? A 10% stake in Canada or a 1% stake in the US?”
100% stake in Alberta.
JJM. “I’m a Canadian. Period.”
I’m a Canadian as well. Read that “Canadian”. Alberta isn’t allowing Muslims their own Sharia law. That’s happening in Ontario. Do you consider that ‘Canadian’?
It’s time for Ottawa and Ontario to take Alberta seriously. There may not be enough separatists in Quebec when the actual vote comes, but don’t think Albertans are the same as Quebecers. If Quebec separates how will they replace the money Ottawa gives them each year? If Alberta separates they will simply keep the billions they give Ottawa each year.
I lost three uncles in WWII. You may have too. All too soon we forget what they fought and died for. It sure as hell isn’t what Ottawa stands for these days.
Canada is a dying country. Speaking as a former and future Albertan, why should Albertans go down with the sinking ship? Sometimes it’s just a good idea to get off. As soon as enough Albertans come to their senses, and when a politician with guts steps up and tells it like it is, we’re gone.
If you need any more proof that the Libs are soulless scags,the appointment of Larry Campbell to the Senate simply for vilifying Stephen Harper at the appropriate time has to be it. This guy has done nothing for Vancouver. I’m originally from Toronto, but the west has absolutely nothing in common with the east except the national debt. Every time I’m forced to return to visit family, I marvel again at how Toronto, truly a once, great, vibrant city, has been reduced to a humourless, boring, dangerous, politically-correct morass. The Balkanization of Canada begins after the next election if the Librano$ are elected. Let Ontario support the rest of the country and contaminate them with their big-spending ways and paranoia.
Separation ..or more properly, the real threat of separation to bring about “reconfederation” of the periphery confederal partners is long over due….if we’re honest with ourselves we’ll admit that only something drastic forces the feds to cat responsibly in a constitutional renewal….it took the upper Canada rebellion to force responsible representative government….it tool the FLQ crisis and Quebec nationalism to yield a charter and subsequent rewrites at Meech and Charlottetown….it will take the determined and imminent separation of the west to trigger democratic and constitutional reform.
Personally, I think it’s too late for the feds to kiss and make up with the west…Alberta is lost to them and BC and Sask. in a major way. They will attempt to bribe us like they did Quebec…but I think many wise Albertans will resist the urge to be bribed with their own money…Alberta’s in the cat bird seat and the next provincial government will not take the crap and revenue raids the reKleins did.
You know, this was a very mild question and I’m a bit surprised that the numbers weren’t higher especially in Alberta.
It only stated “Should Western Canadians begin to explore the idea of forming their own country”. Even with a totally soft question that was akin to “should we start having bad thoughts about Canada”, 57% of Albertans said No. This isn’t outrage yet. We were once proud of Canada and we likely will be again someday. 10 years is a long time in politics.
“Which do you want? A 10% stake in Canada or a 1% stake in the US? ”
The other side of that coin (which you apparently aren’t willing to consider) is “Which do you want to be? An ignored non-player in Canada who is constantly being robbed to pay for bribes to the East, or one of 50 equal partners in the US?”
So you would not be leaving Canada as much as you would be joining the USA?
“I would only point out that while Alberta is a “big cheese” in the Canadian economy it could only be a “little cheese” in the American one. Some 30 or so US states have bigger populations than Alberta.” –JJM
JJM, my understanding is that in the event of Alberta’s separation a number of possibilities present themselves. American statehood is one of a selection.
Many Americans like me would love to see Alberta become a state in the US. We believe it would be great for Alberta and great for the United States.
Let me point out that:
1) In the US we do not have representation by population. If our government consisted solely of the House of Representatives, then we would have representation by population. However, every state elects 2 senators to go to Washington to look out after the state’s interests. So Alberta’s 2 senators would have a vote equal to every other state. (It’s also a reason for our electoral college: to make sure that a region of the country does not get underrepresented simply because of a low population.)
2) If Alberta became a state in the US, you can be assured it would not be a low population state for very long.
3) Actually, because of being a strong energy producer, Alberta would be a big player in the American economy and therefore would be a very important state. And also Alberta would instantly become a part of the agri/cattle business in the US.
I don’t know if statehood is an option that Alberta would choose to pursue, but if they like the idea of statehood, they would certainly be welcomed with open arms.
I am an American who lived for over 20 years in Ontario. I’m in Michigan at present.
I would be happy to move to the Republic of Alberta.
Statehood, as in a United State, should not be considered.
I noticed that Neale News was the only media outlet to report this Western Standard poll. Once again, we have selective journalism from the MSM.
It has been my understanding that Alberta joining the US would not be straightforward. The US left would be opposed. Didn’t Alaska and Hawaii wait something like 20 years (without representation as states), until it was decided that Alaska voted Republican and Hawaii Democrat, so on balance the project was deemed worthwhile for strategic interests?
On the other hand, if the division of geographies into political regions was done rationally, the Yukon and Texas would be the Arctic Ocean and Gulf of Mexico ends of a single nation founded on the eastern slopes of the Rocky Mountains.
The climate and soil aren’t so great for crops, but they’re great for grazing. And then there’s that western-edge of the old inland sea thing, what do they call it again, oh yeah, petroleum and coal.
I’d like to see it called John Stuart Mill Land.
Many people in the west have lost the heart to fight for Canada. A long time ago Presto got a ‘the west wants in’ mantra going and fair minded westerners thought that ‘we’ would get a seat at the table of power!! WRONG. Our people were deridded and scorned by eastern PEOPLE. Good ideas and fair reforms were rejected, good policies were stolen and used by the Liberano’s as their own. Canada owes any prosperity it has to the ideas and policies of The Reform Party of Canada. Stephan Harper and the Conservatives will never appeal to the east because most of the Conservatives are from the west. There is no reason for them to be in Ottawa anymore – we need them at home. Why should we be letting the easterners have access to our people and our ideas anymore. They can sort things out for themselves. Most Westerners are tired of pulling all the weight and getting credit for nothing. Now we don’t want credit from the people who rob us.
Emotional responses to the eastern claims to ‘we know best, you keep working and producing out west and we will use your ideas and money to do what is best for everyone – you have SOME good ideas but you CANNOT have a voice at the decision making table”, have been replaced with a rejection of all Liberano ideas and the ‘mind-set’ of caring about convincing easterners to respect us and our sucess and our M.P.s. Western people (the REAL western people who are not Liberano transplants) are not emotionally interested in representation in Ottawa. They just want ‘out’, most of us want to remain trading partners with the ROC but not to worry if that does not pan out.
This country does NOT work – it never did- it is past time for ‘fixing’ ; I do not care who the PM appoints to the senate or what he says about anything – I just don’t want to be forced to look at him or any of his supporters anymore. I love Western Canada, it has always been my home. I am not AGAINST the ROC, I wish them well. Dealing with them concerning the future of myself and my friends and family is not on the radar screen. I don’t think the east wants their families on our radar screen either. The mindset I see in the west re the east is ‘Let’s just shake hands and agree to not try to live together. It is easy for us to leave, it will be easy for the east to watch the west leave so there is NO Problem.’
Oh, multiculteral, gender unbiased, whoevever heard (in RoC) of this person, pity she’s not also a Muslim, dear:
“Haitian-born Quebecker to be Canada’s next governor-general” http://www.theglobeandmail.com/
‘�Canadians are going to fall in love with this woman,� said a source. �There is no other word to describe her than inspirational. She is extraordinary.�’
What Liberal contempt for Canada. What remains.
Mark
Ottawa
Sorry for this long post, but I think it is particularly relevant. The following is exerpted from an aricle by David Jones, political minister counsellor at the U.S. Embassy in Ottawa from 1992-96. The Hill Times is a publication that follows parliamentary news. -Tony
“From a U.S. perspective, one puzzles over the durability of Canadian unity in the West, and more specifically its attraction for Alberta. A Canadian political maxim has emphasized the patriotic commitment of Western Canadians to Canada, but it appears to be more based in residual sentiment of history than in 21st century logic. Just what is in it for Alberta? What does “Canada” supply that Alberta does not already have or could not supply for itself?
“Federalist Albertans insist that they need to better communicate the needs and more importantly the wishes of the West. They seek a Canada with political, economic, and cultural equality for all through effective representation and communication. For them the reasons for remaining in the Canadian Confederation are the same reasons that were presented for joining Confederation: transportation infrastructure; a larger polity; defence; and social programs — the everyday goings on that we so often forget.
“But to be specific, Albertan taxpayers deliver far more to Ottawa than they receive: their funds go as support payments for many other Canadian provinces. In contrast to Ontario, their visibility in the federal government and among the governing Liberals is minimal. The issues with the most resonance in Alberta: ratification of the Kyoto Accord; the gun registry expenses; increased private health care; are ignored or decided against Albertan preferences. For example, west of Manitoba cementing the “French fact” does not get one per cent of the attention that it receives in Ottawa.
“And this is the way it will always be. As long as the Canadian political structure provides only for “rep by pop,” the West would have to have population levels equivalent to Ontario and Quebec to modify the current socio-economic agenda. If, as some Liberals have tongue-in-cheek suggested, Alberta should elect more Liberals, it would still be meaningless. Alberta’s delegation could be 100 per cent Liberals — and still its interests would take a back seat to those of Ontario and Quebec.
“In contrast to Quebec, Alberta is debt free. Its economy is booming and unemployment is minimal. Alberta is flush with natural resources and has a guaranteed market for them. It has a well-educated electorate and sophisticated political leadership. With no coast line, it has even less need for an independent defence capability than does the rest of Canada (stand on guard against Montana, Saskatchewan, British Columbia, and the Northwest Territories?).
“In Ralph Klein, Ottawa has the most Canada-centric premier Alberta is ever likely to elect. And Ottawa treats him as if he is some inebriated oaf with oil stained jeans. If he suggests that there are concerns among some Albertans about their status in Canada, he gets a snotty lecture from Intergovernmental Minister St�phane Dion — so condescending in tone that even Premier Klein responded that he wasn’t going to be hectored by a junior minister in Ottawa who henceforth should communicate with his provincial equivalent. And, if Premier Klein writes a letter to U.S. Ambassador Paul Cellucci to express sympathy with and support for the coalition effort in Iraq, he gets a slap down lecture from Deputy Prime Minister John Manley over federal primacy in foreign relations (and leaves one wondering why Ottawa had nothing to say about Premier Landry’s vigorous rejection of Canadian participation in Iraq). And commentators appear surprised that the “firewall” concept for Alberta is getting a second look?
“Western Canadians have spent a political generation saying, “The West wants in.” It is no closer to being “in” than the Glacial Ice Fields are to being a tropical resort. For those who thought that April 14 meant that Canada was out of the separatist woods, it may just have entered a grassy glade in the midst of the forest.”
Oops, I forgot to reference that the David Jones essay in the Hill Times was published on 2003-04-28.
Excellent post Tony, sometimes we need to remind ourselves why the hell we are so angry.
Jema54 has it exactly right, and the essay by David Jones posted by Tony echos it. We’ve tried to be a part of this bloody country, always contributing more then our share, only to be constantly backstabbed and stepped on.
The comment was made above about it not being that strong. If the poster would recall, 2 years ago we didn’t even talk about it that much. So if you look at the rise in the short period, and also consider that Albertans usually wipe somthing they don’t like off the political map, you may be in for a surprise. You also have to consider the poll was taken during good economic times. Could you imagine what it would be if the energy industry was crushed again.
We’re tired of trying, and have no loyalty to this country anymore, accept it and move on, because we are. Remember also that this all started with the NEP, and that it is NOT something recent. Good luck to the rest of the country, hopefully it’s the wakeup call that gets the rest of the population off there butt.
‘Canadians will fall in love’ with new governor general.’>>>>>>>> CBC
Librano$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$
Mark, I always enjoy reading your posts as they are always insightful and well presented. But in this case, I was thinking that this is an odd post considering the present thread. But then I thought about it carefully and I realized that the nomination of a personable, smart and delightful (I’ve met her once) black woman would be offensive to a large number of people (her husband is white if it helps). What I don’t understand is your judgment of the person when you admit you don’t know her, or do you know her and just assume that the RoC is just ignorant of her?
In any case, you have to admit that even though a lady like Jeanne Sauv� was not exactly a household name outside of Quebec as Ray Hnatyshyn didn’t exactly roll off the tongues of Quebeckers, both turned out to be decent GG’s.
I think leaving a few months (weeks at least) go by before the shirt ripping starts might be a good idea. The GG’s position is certainly easy to hate but at least give her a chance to move in, no?
I repeat:
“Alberta has a population almost as large as Finland or Norway, a larger land mass and a stronger ecomony than either and yet they seem to make a success of being countries”.
Why should we wish to be american! We can and will go alone if we so choose!!!
Tony – Thanks for the article – great reminder of all virtues of being Alberta. It’s true – even if we elected 100% liberals we would still take a back seat – that’s already exactly what happened during the Mulroney years. That’s why Preston Manning created the Reform party.
Maple, I believe Mark was referring more to the presumptuousness of the statement, “you’re going to love her”, than the actual person. The Librano$ more than likely said the same about Adrienne Clarkson.
There was a column in the Globe and Mail on 2005-05-11 titled “Albertans think they’re smart, when really all they are is lucky”. I sent a note to the author mentioning the following. -Tony
For the record, we do not just go out in the back forty with a squirrel rifle, miss the varmint we’re aimin’ at, and up from the ground comes a bubblin’ crude. (Call for Jed Clampett, Black Gold courtesy telephone please.)
In fact, Alberta has many of the most highly talented petroleum energy infrastructure engineers in the world. Energy that Ontario needs too, my dear. If we weren’t smart, we would have run out of easy fuels long ago, and by now you would be, as Lougheed said, freezing in the dark.
Sure we’re lucky, but so is Eastern Canada. Look at your industrial base, your hydro-power resources, your great cities, the St. Lawrence Seaway and the Great Lakes, your proximity to the largest US markets, and your sharing of a tax base with Alberta.
So if you folks are having problems, then by your posit it may be the case that all you are is not smart. I doubt it. I think you just got a little carried away with that line and didn’t express yourself clearly.
Perhaps you didn’t mean we aren’t smart. Perhaps you just meant to thank us for running this desolate end of Canada’s infrastructure and for staying in Canada for sympathetic reasons, regardless of the high economic cost to us.
Look, if you and I are going to keep the country together, we need to make sure that any wealth redistribution system does not drive out meritocratically wealthy people. Not being polite to them, or denying them the same provincial powers that you and Quebec have, isn’t a good place to start. Will you tell the Prime Minister, or shall I, or shall we change Prime Ministers, or countries?
Just for anyone who was as confused as I was on just who this woman is “The new Governor-General of Canada will be an award-winning journalist (works for the CBC/RDI) who was born in Ha�ti and immigrated to Quebec as a child. Michaelle Jean will also be the youngest person to ever serve as the Queen’s representative in Canada.”
I know nothing of this woman – but I don’t need to know anything – the concept of a GG is reprehensible.
G-G from CBC by AdsCam Martin:
‘Canadians will fall in love’ with new governor general.’>>>>>>>> CBC
Falling in Love with Love is falling for make-believe! Falling in Love with Love
is playing the fool! Caring too much is such a juvenile fancy! …
Librano$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$
“It’s obviously a very exciting appointment. Here’s someone who’s quite young, very dynamic, has a rapport with a lot of younger audience,” said Paul Benoit, an expert on the Canadian monarchy.
At just 48 years old, the award winning journalist will become one of the youngest governors general ever, the third woman in the job and the first black person to call Rideau Hall home.
Jean, a journalist, is probably best known to English Canadians as the host of The Passionate Eye on CBC TV and Rough Cuts on CBC Newsworld.
But her television career was launched in Quebec where she has worked as a journalist, producer and host for the CBC’s French language services, SRC and RDI, since 1988.
She has worked as a correspondent for Le Point, hosted Le Monde ce soir, L’Edition quebecoise, Horizons francophones, le Journal RDI and RDI � l’�coute. Currently she is host of the French-language documentary series Grands Reportages.
Jean has received many awards for her own documentary work including the Amnesty International Journalism Award, the Anik Prize and the Galaxi Award for best information program host.
Historian David Mitchell says Jean will play an important role, at a critical time in Canada’s history. “She will be a voice for Canada in Quebec and she will represent the new Quebec to the rest of Canada very effectively. She has that potential and that sense, this is an inspired choice.”
Jean was born in Port-au-Prince, Haiti. She left in 1968, her family fleeing the oppressive regime of Francois ‘Papa Doc’ Duvalier, settling in Quebec with her family. She is fluent in five languages: French, English, Spanish, Italian and Haitian Creole.
A source close to the governor general selection process told CBC News “Canadians will fall in love with this woman. Her story, her nature and her character are nothing short of inspirational.”
>>>>>>>> Alberta, your comments?
Tony you have my vote…where do I sign up?
Old Quebec may get the message that the next Liberal national unity battle has begun. Immigrants vs old stock Canadien Francais.
Ah yes, multiculturalism at work…..
Will Quebec fall for the deceit? First adscam, now CBC scam part deux.
Will the ‘new’ west play along?
“>>>>>>>> Alberta, your comments?”
Never heard of her, and what difference would it make. Is she another Librano puppet? Can she correct the democratic deficit? Is there the will to even try?
Another words, it’s there country, why should we interfere? .. Who would listen?
Whenever you’re clicking through the channels and you come across a show with ominous music and an American flag waving threateningly in the background you can be almost certain that you’ve stumbled across The Passionate Eye.
Our new GG was the presenter for the show. She works at the CBC.
Any questions?
Does a separated western Canada accept ‘refugee applications’ from white, anglo-saxons yet?
This is what happens when the provincial and federal conservatives have a political strategy that demonizes “Ottawa”. It helps conservatives get elected but over time people hate their country. It is truly sad that conservatives will do anything to get elected.
If I thought for one minute that folks in atlantic Canada and Ontario could be convinced that the Federal Liberal party was destroying the fabric of our Nation I would not support the breakup of Canada. They can not be swayed. I have worked and lived all across our nation. Nothing we can do or say will get those folks to care about the rest of us. We need to go our own way and form our own Nation. We don’t need to become American nor do we need to be anti-american. We can become a Nation Free and fair for all, with an identifiable and defendable culture.
aa. Goodbye. Been nice knowin’ ya’.
I hope, if the time ever comes, that my government backs such a movement. I’m seriously afraid they will not out of their timidness.
I also hope the Eastern half will get tired of sniffing so much crap and things will change and as long as elections are fair, they will.
aa Surely you jest.
If not I can only wonder in what world you live. The 2004 general election demonized Alberta in every possible way. PMPM campaigned to solve western alienation, and yet has done more to fuel this fire in less than 2 years as PM than any previous leader did in their whole term in office. Separation is definately one solution perhaps a bit more final that PM had in mind – but I’m OK with that.
That anyone is surprised by these poll results is shocking to me. I’ve been saying this about the mood in Calgary for months – I have also told my friends in Ontario that if they really care about this country they better wake up because we’ve lost interest in staying.
I wonder what question was asked and how many people participated in the poll. Don’t get me wrong-I’m originaly from Alberta. I think however that seperation from the Liberals (nationwide) is a better answer to the problem.
sheila. I lived in Calgary for many years. Then moved with my family in 1973 and built a house on the shores of a lake in south central BC. If a viable movement gets started and a viable provincial party formed, I will move back just so I can vote ‘yes’. It will be interesting to see if BC follows. There are so many NDPers and Libs here that I’m not at all sure they will.
Those answers are available on the links provided.
AA,
How appropriate, I beleive the first step is acceptance that you have a problem, you are still in denial.
In the words of John McEnroe “You cannot be serious”
Conservatives will do anything to get elected? Like ignore non-confidence motions, spend an additional $4.7 Billion they didn’t have just two weeks earlier, sell off Cabinet seats and on and on and on.
As for demonizing, you should refers to Sheila’s post.A short memory seems to be the Librano strong suuit
John
You better get out of BC before that union mentality overruns the province – you’ll be paying for those 2010 Olympics for a very long time if you don’t.
aa. Goodbye. Been nice knowin’ ya’
Typical liberal asshole. Brain drain? Who cares! Province wants to leave Canada? Who cares!
The liberals sure are doing a good job of destroying Canada. If Alberta leaves then it is only a matter of time before Canada completely falls apart. But then again, who cares!
Hey Sheila, remember when Calgary hosted the Olympics… and (while hosting the “Best Games Ever”) turned a profit? Ahh those were good times…
Of course, I think you’re right; I expect BC to follow Montreal’s lead rather than Calgary’s.
This is what happens when the provincial and federal conservatives have a political strategy that demonizes “Ottawa”. It helps conservatives get elected but over time people hate their country. It is truly sad that conservatives will do anything to get elected.
Now that was the funniest damn shit I’ve read in a long time. Please AA, step back into this universe. The alternate one has fried your brains.
The prospect of separation at least in Alberta is now being discussed in rational discussions. Unfortunately, Alberta has not been well treated by federal Liberal governments and has had comparitively sensible provincial governments (except Ralph seems to have unofficially retired already)
The frustration is specifically with federal liberals. Alberta is simply getting impatient for an effective federal government. I’ve seen westerners ask “what is the benefit of Canadian confederation to the west?”. Some quick tangible answers are the RCMP, the Banff/Jasper national park system, the rail system across Canada, and the ability for our companies such as oil and mining companies and Westjet to operate across Canada. Our medicare system, although several underfunded, is better than that of the U.S. Personally, I love the fact that I can travel and speak some French when needed.
If the tensions between Edmonton and Ottawa remain the same or get worse with the oil sands ramping up, this could become a serious issue in a decade or two. We hafta keep the faith in Alberta that conservatives will form a government.
Whether of the good old-fashioned Quebec variety or based on “Western alienation,” all separatism is essentially the politics of denial.
Denial in the sense that separatists always presume they can have their cake and eat it too; that somehow their standard of living, the economy and the social framework of the state will continue regardless – though that state has been fundamentally altered or no longer even exists.
This is wishful thinking and contrary to the only constantly true law in human affairs: the Law of Unintended Consequences.
I would only point out that while Alberta is a “big cheese” in the Canadian economy it could only be a “little cheese” in the American one. Some 30 or so US states have bigger populations than Alberta.
Which do you want? A 10% stake in Canada or a 1% stake in the US?
Mike Brock said it best:
“The problem with Canadians and unity is not the Bloc Quebecois or Western rednecks; it’s that we simply don’t believe in unity. We think we can have Canada without the Canada.”
I too am fed up with the Liberals and their endless shenanigans. But Canada is more important than them or my feelings about them.
I’m a Canadian. Period.
Brian
The conservatives have been shut out since Brian Mulroney and even BM didn’t do much for us after scrapping the NEP. If you read the full article Kate linked to it shows all the options (but the Firewall) have already been tried. Further, less than two weeks ago the Libs did an end run around the CO2 bill that was rejected in the budget. MSM has not reported this very well but Candace at PlanetX (someone else can find that post and link to it) and a few other Blogs reported it. A Carbon Tax is around the corner so these numbers are going up. I don’t think this is about electing conservatives; most of us have outgrown that notion. I believe that we’ve moved on to the idea that the change has to come from us and from within. (Alberta Agenda&Firewall or Separatism)
Ed
You better believe I remember the 88 Olympics — some of the memories are a bit fuzzy …
Yah, I am aware of the stunt regarding the definition of CO2 as a toxin even after the committee rejected the proposal. Any kind of carbon tax would be a deal breaker for Alberta.
To be clear, I would answer Yes to this question. Of course, Alberta needs to evaluate alternatives. The firewall concept by Morton needs to be considered first. As a province and as a region, we need to develop policies to promote independence WITHIN Canada….if the carbon tax doesn’t materialize. This is as much about the inaction of our provincial governments as it is about the feds.
“Which do you want? A 10% stake in Canada or a 1% stake in the US.”
Why do you anti-separatist always assume we want to be american. Alberta has a population almost as large as Finland or Norway, a larger land mass than either, and a stronger ecomony than either and yet they seem to make a success of being countries.
As for the comment on the lower standard of living … No pain, No Gain. However, just to clarify my personal views, many months ago I commented on this very blog that Ted Morton’s Alberta Agenda/Firewall will be the moderate position in Alberta- I still believe that!
Separatists, Unite!
Let’s analyze the latest poll by the Western Standard, which is hosted HERE and HERE by Nealenews, shall we?
The poll found that the most pro-separatist age category was the 18-29 age bracket, which I fall into. I can see the reasons why younge…
Which do you want? A 10% stake in Canada or a 1% stake in the US?
10% of Enron or 1% of Exxon?
“Which do you want? A 10% stake in Canada or a 1% stake in the US?”
100% stake in Alberta.
JJM. “I’m a Canadian. Period.”
I’m a Canadian as well. Read that “Canadian”. Alberta isn’t allowing Muslims their own Sharia law. That’s happening in Ontario. Do you consider that ‘Canadian’?
It’s time for Ottawa and Ontario to take Alberta seriously. There may not be enough separatists in Quebec when the actual vote comes, but don’t think Albertans are the same as Quebecers. If Quebec separates how will they replace the money Ottawa gives them each year? If Alberta separates they will simply keep the billions they give Ottawa each year.
I lost three uncles in WWII. You may have too. All too soon we forget what they fought and died for. It sure as hell isn’t what Ottawa stands for these days.
Canada is a dying country. Speaking as a former and future Albertan, why should Albertans go down with the sinking ship? Sometimes it’s just a good idea to get off. As soon as enough Albertans come to their senses, and when a politician with guts steps up and tells it like it is, we’re gone.
At this link you will see that Alberta standing alone would be in the top 30 countries for GDP. BEFORE getting our act together.
http://www.projectalberta.com/board/viewtopic.php?t=111
If you need any more proof that the Libs are soulless scags,the appointment of Larry Campbell to the Senate simply for vilifying Stephen Harper at the appropriate time has to be it. This guy has done nothing for Vancouver. I’m originally from Toronto, but the west has absolutely nothing in common with the east except the national debt. Every time I’m forced to return to visit family, I marvel again at how Toronto, truly a once, great, vibrant city, has been reduced to a humourless, boring, dangerous, politically-correct morass. The Balkanization of Canada begins after the next election if the Librano$ are elected. Let Ontario support the rest of the country and contaminate them with their big-spending ways and paranoia.
Separation ..or more properly, the real threat of separation to bring about “reconfederation” of the periphery confederal partners is long over due….if we’re honest with ourselves we’ll admit that only something drastic forces the feds to cat responsibly in a constitutional renewal….it took the upper Canada rebellion to force responsible representative government….it tool the FLQ crisis and Quebec nationalism to yield a charter and subsequent rewrites at Meech and Charlottetown….it will take the determined and imminent separation of the west to trigger democratic and constitutional reform.
Personally, I think it’s too late for the feds to kiss and make up with the west…Alberta is lost to them and BC and Sask. in a major way. They will attempt to bribe us like they did Quebec…but I think many wise Albertans will resist the urge to be bribed with their own money…Alberta’s in the cat bird seat and the next provincial government will not take the crap and revenue raids the reKleins did.
You know, this was a very mild question and I’m a bit surprised that the numbers weren’t higher especially in Alberta.
It only stated “Should Western Canadians begin to explore the idea of forming their own country”. Even with a totally soft question that was akin to “should we start having bad thoughts about Canada”, 57% of Albertans said No. This isn’t outrage yet. We were once proud of Canada and we likely will be again someday. 10 years is a long time in politics.
“Which do you want? A 10% stake in Canada or a 1% stake in the US? ”
The other side of that coin (which you apparently aren’t willing to consider) is “Which do you want to be? An ignored non-player in Canada who is constantly being robbed to pay for bribes to the East, or one of 50 equal partners in the US?”
So you would not be leaving Canada as much as you would be joining the USA?
“I would only point out that while Alberta is a “big cheese” in the Canadian economy it could only be a “little cheese” in the American one. Some 30 or so US states have bigger populations than Alberta.” –JJM
JJM, my understanding is that in the event of Alberta’s separation a number of possibilities present themselves. American statehood is one of a selection.
Many Americans like me would love to see Alberta become a state in the US. We believe it would be great for Alberta and great for the United States.
Let me point out that:
1) In the US we do not have representation by population. If our government consisted solely of the House of Representatives, then we would have representation by population. However, every state elects 2 senators to go to Washington to look out after the state’s interests. So Alberta’s 2 senators would have a vote equal to every other state. (It’s also a reason for our electoral college: to make sure that a region of the country does not get underrepresented simply because of a low population.)
2) If Alberta became a state in the US, you can be assured it would not be a low population state for very long.
3) Actually, because of being a strong energy producer, Alberta would be a big player in the American economy and therefore would be a very important state. And also Alberta would instantly become a part of the agri/cattle business in the US.
I don’t know if statehood is an option that Alberta would choose to pursue, but if they like the idea of statehood, they would certainly be welcomed with open arms.
I am an American who lived for over 20 years in Ontario. I’m in Michigan at present.
I would be happy to move to the Republic of Alberta.
Statehood, as in a United State, should not be considered.
I noticed that Neale News was the only media outlet to report this Western Standard poll. Once again, we have selective journalism from the MSM.
It has been my understanding that Alberta joining the US would not be straightforward. The US left would be opposed. Didn’t Alaska and Hawaii wait something like 20 years (without representation as states), until it was decided that Alaska voted Republican and Hawaii Democrat, so on balance the project was deemed worthwhile for strategic interests?
On the other hand, if the division of geographies into political regions was done rationally, the Yukon and Texas would be the Arctic Ocean and Gulf of Mexico ends of a single nation founded on the eastern slopes of the Rocky Mountains.
The climate and soil aren’t so great for crops, but they’re great for grazing. And then there’s that western-edge of the old inland sea thing, what do they call it again, oh yeah, petroleum and coal.
I’d like to see it called John Stuart Mill Land.
Many people in the west have lost the heart to fight for Canada. A long time ago Presto got a ‘the west wants in’ mantra going and fair minded westerners thought that ‘we’ would get a seat at the table of power!! WRONG. Our people were deridded and scorned by eastern PEOPLE. Good ideas and fair reforms were rejected, good policies were stolen and used by the Liberano’s as their own. Canada owes any prosperity it has to the ideas and policies of The Reform Party of Canada. Stephan Harper and the Conservatives will never appeal to the east because most of the Conservatives are from the west. There is no reason for them to be in Ottawa anymore – we need them at home. Why should we be letting the easterners have access to our people and our ideas anymore. They can sort things out for themselves. Most Westerners are tired of pulling all the weight and getting credit for nothing. Now we don’t want credit from the people who rob us.
Emotional responses to the eastern claims to ‘we know best, you keep working and producing out west and we will use your ideas and money to do what is best for everyone – you have SOME good ideas but you CANNOT have a voice at the decision making table”, have been replaced with a rejection of all Liberano ideas and the ‘mind-set’ of caring about convincing easterners to respect us and our sucess and our M.P.s. Western people (the REAL western people who are not Liberano transplants) are not emotionally interested in representation in Ottawa. They just want ‘out’, most of us want to remain trading partners with the ROC but not to worry if that does not pan out.
This country does NOT work – it never did- it is past time for ‘fixing’ ; I do not care who the PM appoints to the senate or what he says about anything – I just don’t want to be forced to look at him or any of his supporters anymore. I love Western Canada, it has always been my home. I am not AGAINST the ROC, I wish them well. Dealing with them concerning the future of myself and my friends and family is not on the radar screen. I don’t think the east wants their families on our radar screen either. The mindset I see in the west re the east is ‘Let’s just shake hands and agree to not try to live together. It is easy for us to leave, it will be easy for the east to watch the west leave so there is NO Problem.’
Oh, multiculteral, gender unbiased, whoevever heard (in RoC) of this person, pity she’s not also a Muslim, dear:
“Haitian-born Quebecker to be Canada’s next governor-general”
http://www.theglobeandmail.com/
‘�Canadians are going to fall in love with this woman,� said a source. �There is no other word to describe her than inspirational. She is extraordinary.�’
What Liberal contempt for Canada. What remains.
Mark
Ottawa
Sorry for this long post, but I think it is particularly relevant. The following is exerpted from an aricle by David Jones, political minister counsellor at the U.S. Embassy in Ottawa from 1992-96. The Hill Times is a publication that follows parliamentary news. -Tony
“From a U.S. perspective, one puzzles over the durability of Canadian unity in the West, and more specifically its attraction for Alberta. A Canadian political maxim has emphasized the patriotic commitment of Western Canadians to Canada, but it appears to be more based in residual sentiment of history than in 21st century logic. Just what is in it for Alberta? What does “Canada” supply that Alberta does not already have or could not supply for itself?
“Federalist Albertans insist that they need to better communicate the needs and more importantly the wishes of the West. They seek a Canada with political, economic, and cultural equality for all through effective representation and communication. For them the reasons for remaining in the Canadian Confederation are the same reasons that were presented for joining Confederation: transportation infrastructure; a larger polity; defence; and social programs — the everyday goings on that we so often forget.
“But to be specific, Albertan taxpayers deliver far more to Ottawa than they receive: their funds go as support payments for many other Canadian provinces. In contrast to Ontario, their visibility in the federal government and among the governing Liberals is minimal. The issues with the most resonance in Alberta: ratification of the Kyoto Accord; the gun registry expenses; increased private health care; are ignored or decided against Albertan preferences. For example, west of Manitoba cementing the “French fact” does not get one per cent of the attention that it receives in Ottawa.
“And this is the way it will always be. As long as the Canadian political structure provides only for “rep by pop,” the West would have to have population levels equivalent to Ontario and Quebec to modify the current socio-economic agenda. If, as some Liberals have tongue-in-cheek suggested, Alberta should elect more Liberals, it would still be meaningless. Alberta’s delegation could be 100 per cent Liberals — and still its interests would take a back seat to those of Ontario and Quebec.
“In contrast to Quebec, Alberta is debt free. Its economy is booming and unemployment is minimal. Alberta is flush with natural resources and has a guaranteed market for them. It has a well-educated electorate and sophisticated political leadership. With no coast line, it has even less need for an independent defence capability than does the rest of Canada (stand on guard against Montana, Saskatchewan, British Columbia, and the Northwest Territories?).
“In Ralph Klein, Ottawa has the most Canada-centric premier Alberta is ever likely to elect. And Ottawa treats him as if he is some inebriated oaf with oil stained jeans. If he suggests that there are concerns among some Albertans about their status in Canada, he gets a snotty lecture from Intergovernmental Minister St�phane Dion — so condescending in tone that even Premier Klein responded that he wasn’t going to be hectored by a junior minister in Ottawa who henceforth should communicate with his provincial equivalent. And, if Premier Klein writes a letter to U.S. Ambassador Paul Cellucci to express sympathy with and support for the coalition effort in Iraq, he gets a slap down lecture from Deputy Prime Minister John Manley over federal primacy in foreign relations (and leaves one wondering why Ottawa had nothing to say about Premier Landry’s vigorous rejection of Canadian participation in Iraq). And commentators appear surprised that the “firewall” concept for Alberta is getting a second look?
“Western Canadians have spent a political generation saying, “The West wants in.” It is no closer to being “in” than the Glacial Ice Fields are to being a tropical resort. For those who thought that April 14 meant that Canada was out of the separatist woods, it may just have entered a grassy glade in the midst of the forest.”
Oops, I forgot to reference that the David Jones essay in the Hill Times was published on 2003-04-28.
Excellent post Tony, sometimes we need to remind ourselves why the hell we are so angry.
Jema54 has it exactly right, and the essay by David Jones posted by Tony echos it. We’ve tried to be a part of this bloody country, always contributing more then our share, only to be constantly backstabbed and stepped on.
The comment was made above about it not being that strong. If the poster would recall, 2 years ago we didn’t even talk about it that much. So if you look at the rise in the short period, and also consider that Albertans usually wipe somthing they don’t like off the political map, you may be in for a surprise. You also have to consider the poll was taken during good economic times. Could you imagine what it would be if the energy industry was crushed again.
We’re tired of trying, and have no loyalty to this country anymore, accept it and move on, because we are. Remember also that this all started with the NEP, and that it is NOT something recent. Good luck to the rest of the country, hopefully it’s the wakeup call that gets the rest of the population off there butt.
‘Canadians will fall in love’ with new governor general.’>>>>>>>> CBC
Librano$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$
Mark, I always enjoy reading your posts as they are always insightful and well presented. But in this case, I was thinking that this is an odd post considering the present thread. But then I thought about it carefully and I realized that the nomination of a personable, smart and delightful (I’ve met her once) black woman would be offensive to a large number of people (her husband is white if it helps). What I don’t understand is your judgment of the person when you admit you don’t know her, or do you know her and just assume that the RoC is just ignorant of her?
In any case, you have to admit that even though a lady like Jeanne Sauv� was not exactly a household name outside of Quebec as Ray Hnatyshyn didn’t exactly roll off the tongues of Quebeckers, both turned out to be decent GG’s.
I think leaving a few months (weeks at least) go by before the shirt ripping starts might be a good idea. The GG’s position is certainly easy to hate but at least give her a chance to move in, no?
I repeat:
“Alberta has a population almost as large as Finland or Norway, a larger land mass and a stronger ecomony than either and yet they seem to make a success of being countries”.
Why should we wish to be american! We can and will go alone if we so choose!!!
Tony – Thanks for the article – great reminder of all virtues of being Alberta. It’s true – even if we elected 100% liberals we would still take a back seat – that’s already exactly what happened during the Mulroney years. That’s why Preston Manning created the Reform party.
Maple, I believe Mark was referring more to the presumptuousness of the statement, “you’re going to love her”, than the actual person. The Librano$ more than likely said the same about Adrienne Clarkson.
There was a column in the Globe and Mail on 2005-05-11 titled “Albertans think they’re smart, when really all they are is lucky”. I sent a note to the author mentioning the following. -Tony
For the record, we do not just go out in the back forty with a squirrel rifle, miss the varmint we’re aimin’ at, and up from the ground comes a bubblin’ crude. (Call for Jed Clampett, Black Gold courtesy telephone please.)
In fact, Alberta has many of the most highly talented petroleum energy infrastructure engineers in the world. Energy that Ontario needs too, my dear. If we weren’t smart, we would have run out of easy fuels long ago, and by now you would be, as Lougheed said, freezing in the dark.
Sure we’re lucky, but so is Eastern Canada. Look at your industrial base, your hydro-power resources, your great cities, the St. Lawrence Seaway and the Great Lakes, your proximity to the largest US markets, and your sharing of a tax base with Alberta.
So if you folks are having problems, then by your posit it may be the case that all you are is not smart. I doubt it. I think you just got a little carried away with that line and didn’t express yourself clearly.
Perhaps you didn’t mean we aren’t smart. Perhaps you just meant to thank us for running this desolate end of Canada’s infrastructure and for staying in Canada for sympathetic reasons, regardless of the high economic cost to us.
Look, if you and I are going to keep the country together, we need to make sure that any wealth redistribution system does not drive out meritocratically wealthy people. Not being polite to them, or denying them the same provincial powers that you and Quebec have, isn’t a good place to start. Will you tell the Prime Minister, or shall I, or shall we change Prime Ministers, or countries?
Just for anyone who was as confused as I was on just who this woman is “The new Governor-General of Canada will be an award-winning journalist (works for the CBC/RDI) who was born in Ha�ti and immigrated to Quebec as a child. Michaelle Jean will also be the youngest person to ever serve as the Queen’s representative in Canada.”
I know nothing of this woman – but I don’t need to know anything – the concept of a GG is reprehensible.
G-G from CBC by AdsCam Martin:
‘Canadians will fall in love’ with new governor general.’>>>>>>>> CBC
Falling in Love with Love is falling for make-believe! Falling in Love with Love
is playing the fool! Caring too much is such a juvenile fancy! …
Librano$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$
“It’s obviously a very exciting appointment. Here’s someone who’s quite young, very dynamic, has a rapport with a lot of younger audience,” said Paul Benoit, an expert on the Canadian monarchy.
At just 48 years old, the award winning journalist will become one of the youngest governors general ever, the third woman in the job and the first black person to call Rideau Hall home.
Jean, a journalist, is probably best known to English Canadians as the host of The Passionate Eye on CBC TV and Rough Cuts on CBC Newsworld.
But her television career was launched in Quebec where she has worked as a journalist, producer and host for the CBC’s French language services, SRC and RDI, since 1988.
She has worked as a correspondent for Le Point, hosted Le Monde ce soir, L’Edition quebecoise, Horizons francophones, le Journal RDI and RDI � l’�coute. Currently she is host of the French-language documentary series Grands Reportages.
Jean has received many awards for her own documentary work including the Amnesty International Journalism Award, the Anik Prize and the Galaxi Award for best information program host.
Historian David Mitchell says Jean will play an important role, at a critical time in Canada’s history. “She will be a voice for Canada in Quebec and she will represent the new Quebec to the rest of Canada very effectively. She has that potential and that sense, this is an inspired choice.”
Jean was born in Port-au-Prince, Haiti. She left in 1968, her family fleeing the oppressive regime of Francois ‘Papa Doc’ Duvalier, settling in Quebec with her family. She is fluent in five languages: French, English, Spanish, Italian and Haitian Creole.
A source close to the governor general selection process told CBC News “Canadians will fall in love with this woman. Her story, her nature and her character are nothing short of inspirational.”
>>>>>>>> Alberta, your comments?
Tony you have my vote…where do I sign up?
Old Quebec may get the message that the next Liberal national unity battle has begun. Immigrants vs old stock Canadien Francais.
Ah yes, multiculturalism at work…..
Will Quebec fall for the deceit? First adscam, now CBC scam part deux.
Will the ‘new’ west play along?
“>>>>>>>> Alberta, your comments?”
Never heard of her, and what difference would it make. Is she another Librano puppet? Can she correct the democratic deficit? Is there the will to even try?
Another words, it’s there country, why should we interfere? .. Who would listen?
Whenever you’re clicking through the channels and you come across a show with ominous music and an American flag waving threateningly in the background you can be almost certain that you’ve stumbled across The Passionate Eye.
Our new GG was the presenter for the show. She works at the CBC.
Any questions?