When I worked for United Way, some group was always coming up with a new “solution” to the problem of Jamaican/Somali violence. Each brilliant new innovative program featured: a) basketball, b) rap music or c) basketball & rap music.
Yep, just what these kids need: more false hopes about making it big in ball, and more immersion in degraded black pop culture!
And this is a cultural problem. US blacks make up 8% of the population, but commit almost half the violent crime [We don’t keep race based stats up here]. Black kids from upper class families score lower on standardized tests than white lower class kids. Being a “baby momma” is now a badge of honour, (and I still love Fantasia, ok?) not something to be ashamed of and discouraged.
Blaming this stuff on “slavery” is like a Canadian kid of Irish descent saying he dropped out of school because of the Orange Lodge and the Potato Famine.
Earlier this year, a 26-year-old black mother of four was shot at a club at 3 in the morning. What is a 26-year-old doing with four kids, and why is at a speakeasy when decent people are home in bed?
She quotes Kateland on the “elephants in the room”;
Let me tell you a fact of life living in black community in the downtown east side of the inner city. There are a multitude of programs for youth to keep them off the streets. There are probably more community centers and not-for-profit programs run in this area than in any other part of the city. They are all easily accessible to all youths � even for those whose families are on welfare or have very limited financial means. Guess what? The children, on a whole, don�t show up. To participate and take advantage of any of these programs requires a certain amount of discipline to show up every Monday or Wednesday or Friday or Sunday and that is what these children lack because their families are so fractured and their parents have failed in their first duties to their children.”
But be warned – whether discussing cultural and parental failure at the root of black gang warfare in Toronto or aboriginal gang violence in Western Canada, lancing the purulent��pachyderm will rouse the wrath of the parasite class that fattens both ego and wallet in a victimization industry fueled by blaming everyone but.
I have the strong impression–someone please correct me if I am wrong–that in Toronto it’s not so much a problem of black violence but overwhelmingly black violence by Jamaican immigrants or of Jamaican descent. Not blacks from Africa, or elsewhere in the Caribbean.
So the problem is not a racial one, it’s an ethno/cultural one–note the terrible violence for many years in Jamaica itself.
If this Jamaican aspect is true, then surely one could identify this publicly–it would no longer be racial profiling of blacks generally–and see if this isolation of the problem group could help one deal with things.
Mark
Ottawa
Great post, and timely. I read Kate’s post this AM and wrote on it- and I was impressed with her clarity and honesty. Also, it was refreshing to see a Canadian who struggles in the same way we do, down here.
Yes, it is a Jamaican and recently Somali problem. Mostly Jamaican however.
I have known a number of Trinidadian and Bahamian Canadians in my life, first in Hamilton and now in Toronto. It is not uncommon for them to say, within your hearing and without any prompting, “Those Jamaicans ruin everything for black people wherever they go.” Their frustration is palpable. This is a very commonplace expression.
There is a culture of violence, drug use and underachievement in Jamaica that is transported up here. They export there criminals here, like the Mexicans do to the US.
When your most famous artistic export is a drug addled, inarticulate “musician” who believed that Haille Salasse was Jesus Christ, the bar is set pretty low to begin with. There is all the difference in the world between Marley and Mozart.
Everytime I comment and post on this, I joke that we need more racial profiling: that is, I try to get people to refer to Jamaican rather than “black” violence. It is just as silly, lazy and dangerous to say “Asian gangs” when you mean “Vietnamese” or whatever.
Kathy: Then why are the media and politicians not defining the problem properly? As I said above, identifying Jamaicans (and Somalis) would not be racist–it would be the opposite as it would make it clear than blacks of other origins are generally not involved.
Mark
Ottawa
I’d also like to add that the United Way of Greater Toronto funds some great programs as well as stupid ones. For example, they have been branching out into social entrepreneurship, with programs that allow immigrants (we had to call them “newcomers”) and the mentally ill to start and run their own business. I wrote up some of their success stories, and even this crusty old broad was quite moved.
UWGT has 200 member agencies and they do not hover around monitoring every little thing the agencies do and say. They also keep their own admin fees extremely low (about 11 or 12% when I was there, so 90% of your donation goes where you want it to go. In the “industry”, a very impressive figure.)
So in a toss up between charity and government, I lean towards charity. I just wish most charities weren’t run by brain dead, humourless MSW lefties who fall for every new fad and statistic.
Mark, it would still be considered racist. When black leaders get called Uncle Tom for raising the issue, no white media guy is gonna stick his neck out.
Frankly, I don’t understand the _political_ reluctance because, let’s face it, Jamaicans aren’t exactly a politically engaged block of prosperous voters or even party donors, right? To be cynical about it, it isn’t like the issue would cost you votes.
About the 26-year-old on whom Kathy so effortlessly passes judgement:
“Livvette Moore, whose husband died from cancer last year, had been struggling to raise her children and balance the demands of a new job. So friends encouraged the 26-year-old to join them at a birthday party Saturday night at Prestige Palace, a restaurant on Milvan Dr. in North York. …
“Reid [Moore’s father], 53, said Livvette didn’t drink and had joined friends at the party to try to find some pleasure as she worked to get over her husband Sean’s death.”
Not that it particularly changes her point, but I believe that in the US, blacks make up more than 8% of the population.
OK, checked the World Factbook, they say 12.9%. More of an FYI than anyting else.
Aw that’s so touching, Chris, but I still don’t happen to think the now single mother of a bunch of kids should be out galavanting at all hours, at a place that obviously attracts a lower class of person. I don’t care what colour she is. I found the habit dispicable among my white trash neighbours during my own childhood.
Once you have kids, your life changes. You do not go out til god knows when, ESPECIALLY if there is only one parent left. It doesn’t matter if your husband died of cancer. Life is unfair. You do not risk your life and your children’s future without thinking, Am I hanging around in an undesirable place? Is there somewhere more appropriate for me to be?
If that means you don’t get to “have fun anymore”, well maybe you should have thought of that earlier.
Every Torontonian knows that these “clubs” are hangouts for drug dealers and users and the site of all kinds of nefarious activity. She wasn’t at a church social or an afternoon picnic in the park. Can they not celebrate a birthday party at some kind of legitimate venue??
The Toronto Star’s version of things no doubt follows the old NYT “Neediest Cases” template. I would take that story with a grain of salt.
This woman is the unfortunate, needless victim of yet another aspect of Toronto culture: hanging out at half-legal places at all hours while your kids are at home (or wherever), spending money on bling instead of, oh I dunno, RSPs or something.
And then refusing to cooperate with the cops when the shit hits the fan. Way to go guys. Find the one who shot the 3 year old last week? Oh I forgot, it is all Mike Harris’s fault or something.
If more people were as “judgemental” as I am, the whole notion of “social stigma” and “reputation” would come back, and we’d all be better off.
Oh and nice selective quoting Chris. Here’s her dad:
“I talked to the Creator this morning,” he said. “Because only He knows what’s going on with this young generation. We’ve got to change our style. It’s not good. It’s killing us, big time, big time.”
Readers who click on the link you thoughtfully provided will learn that she was as (surprise) a “Jamaican themed” establishment. And that other “after hours” clubs (funny, we used to call em boozecans) had also been the site of violence that week. And that it commonplace that every weekend, guys about 19 or 20 show up at these places armed with guns. Usually they are stopped by bouncers. This time they weren’t.
No one advertises their “birthday party” on a flyer that is publically distributed. This was not a Hallmark Card, private function. It was another night of dubious behaviour at a known hangout.
No shoot ups at the library or the ROM that weekend! Oddly enough!
“What is a 26-year-old doing with four kids…”
Perhaps she’s a good Catholic? (Multiply and be fruitful, and all that.)
Okay, snide remarks aside, may I politely inquire WTF is wrong with a 26 year old woman having four kids? It’s none of my business how many kids other parents choose to have, given that:
a) They didn’t start making babies until they passed the age of majority
b) They are capable of raising them without having to stick me with the bill for it (people who have kids just to increase their welfare benefits SUCK)
c) That they raise the kids to be decent people, not little ill-behaved little fiends that are a drain on society
Jeez, Kathy. I could see you being upset over a 16 year old having 4 kids, but let’s be reasonable here.
“I have the strong impression….that it’s not so much a problem of black violence but overwhelmingly black violence by Jamaican immigrants or of Jamaican descent.”
You’re probably right. But who really knows? We could ask Citzenship & Immigration for their opinion but I believe they’re busy right now double-checking the university degrees of immigrant doctors.
Regardless of the person’s skin color or cultural background the police are having a difficult job fighting the crime in Toronto, especially when you factor in Correctional Service Canada:
http://www.csc-scc.gc.ca/text/faits/fac03-04_e.shtml
Statutory Release
…statutory release CAN BE DENIED, if a detention hearing determines that the offender will likely commit an offence CAUSING HARM OR DEATH, a sexual offence involving a child or a serious drug offence…
While in Toronto:
http://www.torontopolice.on.ca/newsreleases/
DANGEROUS OFFENDER unlawfully at large,Roberto Camara, 35
….Corrections Services Canada and the Provincial Repeat Offender Parole Enforcement Unit (R.O.P.E.) are requesting the assistance from the public in locating a dangerous offender, Roberto Camara, 35.
This federal offender is serving a 14−year, 6−month sentence for ATTEMPTED MURDER, Use a Firearm While Committing an Indictable Offence and Aggravated Assault. Other convictions include Escape Custody, Assault, Assault Peace Officer, Narcotics and Property related offences. He was released on STATUTORY RELEASE, Sunday, July 10, 2005….
and
DANGEROUS OFFENDER unlawfully at large, Steven Lawrence Mehlenbacher, 34
…Corrections Services Canada and the Provincial Repeat Offender Parole Enforcement (R.O.P.E.) Unit are requesting assistance from the public in locating a dangerous offender.
Steven Lawrence Mehlenbacher, 34, was serving a six−year sentence in the federal system for Robbery, Possession of a Prohibited Weapon and Obstruct Police. He was on a STATUTORY RELEASE for one day when he went missing…
So how much more dangerous does a ‘Dangerous Offender’ have to be before the CSC decides to deny statutory release?
Kathy: “Then why are the media and politicians not defining the problem properly?” The answer is multiculturalism and political correctness. The MSM has no problem calling Russian gangs “Russian gangs”. Oh, forgot. They’re white.
In the end, people get what they deserve. If we insist on electing political parties whose policy is to let this scum into our countries, along with their culture and associated problems, then we deserve what we’re getting.
Organized gangs are no different than terrorists.
I know what I’d do if one of my children were victimized by drug terrorists. I would become a street person and take time to study the territory and make plans. I would then become a buyer in order to get to know who these guys are, especially the ones who victimized my family. Then I would leave a trail of dead drug dealers behind me and use a different handgun each time, purchased at the local bar or hangout. Once I finished with the locals I’d work my way up the chain until somebody stopped me.
I would do this because I know the RCMP would not. I would do this because I know our government would not.
To everyone who is complaining but doing nothing, what would you do if it happened to your child? To everyone who insists on voting for a political party that lets this scum into our country, what would you do if this happened to your child?
Get my point?
“Aw that’s so touching, Chris, but I still don’t happen to think the now single mother of a bunch of kids should be out galavanting at all hours, at a place that obviously attracts a lower class of person.”
Fair enough. The only reasons I brought it up were (a) that I thought you were unfairly blaming the victim, in rather spectacular fashion, and (b) because I can’t for the life of me figure out what the hell Livvette Moore’s poor decision � if that’s what it was � has to do with solving gun violence, which was the subject of your post.
Oh, and about this “four kids at 26” thing � what Sean said.
Actually, if you’re willing to dig through reams of paper, there ARE “race-based stats” kept in Canada, but they are almost never released in that format, so you need to go back to the raw data; when you do an evaluation on the Canadian data, the single biggest group that stands out here is “native”/Aboriginal Canadians, who form approximately 3% of the Canadian population, but commit an average of 20% of all Canadian murders. Aside from Toronto, the black population in Canada is so small as to be almost invisible in most of the country.
I didn’t read it so much as “blaming the victim” as it did in underlining the ugly truth that a great number of the parents of these kids are AWOL much of the time. That she happened to be killed in crossfire is unfortunate for her and a tragedy for her children, but as was pointed out, not entirely unpredictable.
I grew up in a family where there were 4 of us before our parents were 30. Birthdays were celebrated in family homes, not after hours bars with a history of gunplay.
There will be no solution to the gun violence, Jamaican posses, etc. until political correctness is put aside and reality dealt with. So far, Toronto officials have blamed the yanks, blamed poverty, blamed the media for their portrayal of the community, etc. (Toronto Star a few years ago). This is all about bad parenting, black men who father children from a number of women and then refuse to cough up support, never mind sharing in the parenting. Whites with similar situations have different problems, not so much turf wars but bullying, drug and alcohol abuse and child abuse. They refuse to enforce the law, hand out stiff sentences, etc. What is it with Canadian judges that they will not hand out harsh sentences as deterrents? I don’t believe for an instant that it doesn’t work. And why not deport them right away instead of allowing them to fight deportation for years, often out in the community doing business as usual? Maybe this will be enough to finally convince Torontonians that Liberal justice needs to be overhauled. Vote conservative.
It would be nice to have some accountability in our immigration system. Perhaps everytime a young Jamaican male shoots some Torontonian, the newspapers could publish, directly beside the culprit’s mugshot, a photo of the person at the Immigration department who decided to approve the application. Clearly someone thinks that importing young Jamaican men from the slums of Kingston is a good thing for all Canadians.
It would be interesting to hear their rationale for doing so, although I suspect we would just hear vague Liberal-speak.
I want to second something Kathy Shaidle said above. I have met two and only two Trinidian men, and they are probably the nicest, kindest people I have ever met in my life. They are almost certain to encounter prejudice because of Jamaicans who bring to our country an alien culture of abject violence and disrespect for human life.
There is not one single reason why they should be invited to Canada to live as Canadian citizens. What are the criteria for admission, anyway?
Vote Conservative.
Rather than prejudge a new aquaintance, look for calouses. If the largest ones are on his/her ass, LEAVE RIGHT NOW.
Scars from work or sports are my signal to give the subject a bit more time to add to the resume he/she has just delivered.
Eastern Paul: Good call. Also, I like someone who is looking for work as opposed to looking for a job. The odds are I can find something for somebody who wants to work as opposed to trying to find a job to suit somebody.
The Jane- Finch corridor was a war zone 20 years ago, and it was mainly the….Jamaicans.The problem begins in Kingston Town, and with whatever Canada’s consular attaches are doing to introduce Jamaica’s finest to the good life in the GTA.The cops, the city officials and every other parasitic bureaucrat who has looked the other way, knows that only tough measures will rid Toronto of a fully metastisized cancer.Who’s got the will?
Racial differences are irrelevant. I don’t think there are very many real “racists” anymore. What people get agitated about are cultural differences, not racial ones. “Culturalists” are the new racists. After all, white North Americans and middle Easterners are both Aryan peoples. We have cultural, not racial differences. The quality of the public conversation would be improved if people would remember this. We could talk about the real points of disagreement, rather than all ducking for cover when someone hurls the “racist” grenade. Having said that, however, the “culturalist” grenade is probably even more deadly here in the multicult paradise. Sigh. Does it have to be this way?
“What people get agitated about are cultural differences, not racial ones. “Culturalists” are the new racists.”
Yeh, that would be me. Can I just say how happy I am that there are no mosques anywhere near where I live now? (Note to EBD: I have no problem with the RC church down the road, prolly ‘cuz I don’t see Catholics preaching that infidel non-believers should be put to the sword.)
“Birthdays were celebrated in family homes, not after hours bars with a history of gunplay.”
Too many of the people who would make good parents aren’t parents. Dammit. Get moving on that, wouldya Kate?
Well, Chris, I guess I have the incredible ability to make more than one point in one post!! You have this bad habit of getting all worked up when I demonstrate this amazing talent of mine. Do expand your mind a tad.
And there is nothing wrong with blaming the victim when victims are to blame. Although in this case I wouldn’t say blame so much as echo Kate’s comments in a cruder way: Lie down with dogs.
Sean: Her first born is 10, so do the math. When you have a kid when you are 16, then another 3 years later and so forth, you don’t exactly have time to get that PhD in astrophysics. You are probably a high school dropout, and part of a culture in which being a high school dropout is cool, and having a baby at 16 is cool squared. And guess who pays for all that?
Note too that the victim’s father is only 53 or so. Again: I don’t sense grad school, and the financial benefits that go with it, being in these folk’s background.
My point, which I should have been clearer about, has much more to do with babies having babies (the reason I noted her age and number of kids in the same sentence). As both my sisters discovered, it is close to impossible to “bounce back” in life when you have a baby at 16. One did (it took her decades), the other didn’t.
According to widely touted statistics, to avoid poverty one should a) not get married before aged 21, b) not have children out of wedlock and c) finish high school.
I’m going out on a limb here, but I’m guessing those three things are major priorities in this situation. One needed spend time poring over Clinton Admin stats to know this, one need only look around at one’s friends to pick that up.
“Note too that the victim’s father is only 53 or so. Again: I don’t sense grad school, and the financial benefits that go with it, being in these folk’s background.”
So now it’s dodgy to have a kid when you’re 27? Amazing that we’re relying on the Star for our background here, since you seem to know every single thing there is to know about this family.
A couple of things. When I started high school there were 3 (I think) black guys in my school. They were brothers (in the literal sense). If I remember correctly their father had been transferred to Toronto from the U.S. They were articulate, intelligent and presentable young guys. One of them went on to win a medal at the L.A. Summer Olympics in track and field then played for the Toronto Argo’s CFL team.
Then, in grade 10 and 11 the Jamaican invasion happened. We were inundated by dozens and finally hundreds of youths “from the Island mon”. These dudes, for the most part were arseholes. Arrogant, violent and they travelled in packs – gangs weren’t prevalent back then. I witnessed two really violent beatings of white guys (who may have provoked the assailant, not sure). Also, if you google ‘Paul Douglas Smithers’ you’ll find out about a fight that resulted in the death of a white kid in an arena parking lot after a hockey game. In this case I know that the white kid provoked Smithers with racist comments, although killing someone is rather extreme retribution. Smithers went to my school.
Many arrived in this country with a bad attitude and they have never looked back. Only gotten worse. This wasn’t recent. I’m 46. Do the math.
Having said that, I mentioned months ago in a post on this blog that I have worked with 2 brothers (again literally) from Jamaica and I would trust them with the lives of my children. They left Jamaica for the same reason we don’t want the current crew here. They were surrounded by violent arseholes and they wanted a better life for themselves and their families. Too bad that wasn’t the true goal of all immigrants.
When I lived in Toronto in the early 90s, Jamaicans already had a bad reputation, but Somalis were considered to be quite law-abiding. What’s changed?
Kathy – Gotta say – you’re really on a roll these last couple of days. Clearly there are no shades of grey where you live.
There is so much misinformation here I don’t know where to start.
Let’s start off with what seems right; for the most part Kathy is correct to say the “birthday” party where the mother of four was killed is symbolic of what’s wrong. Lots of people said so at the time and lots of people thought so at the time and still do, black or white.
But then Kathy you go off the deep end and take everybody else with you. You start with unnecessary cheap shots at Bob Marley. Drug-adled? Hellooo, it was the 70s and it was music. So were the Beatles, Mick Jagger, Keith Richards, Bob Dylan, Janis Joplin. Bob Marley was anything but “inarticulate” and numerous contemporaneous evidence exists for that. But really, which country can boast of a better musical export than Mozart anyway? Why bring him up to compare.
I nitpick except for this seemed to declare “open season” on Jamaica.
It is untrue to say Jamaica is exporting its criminal element. Jamaica has a high murder rate (20 times Toronto’s) and some of the folks who come here continue their violent ways. Most Jamaicans here or in Jamaica, detest the criminal thug element. There is a growing middle class of Jamaican professionals coming to Canada and living in Mississuage and Brampton. To say that Jamaica is “exporting its criminals” is to imply only criminals are being emigrated. Which is completely false.
To characterize Jamaicans as “for the most part arseholes” is a racist statement plain and simple; minimally a massive slur, unkind and untrue.
It is also untrue to somehow bring in Trinidadian views on Jamaica into this. First off, there is a large amount of animosity between the two groups going back for years. Looking for a Trini to say good things about a Jamaican is silly. Secondly, according to the Trinidadian paper (http://www.guardian.co.tt/archives/2004-11-09/editorial.html) trinidad has the world’s fifth highest murder rate.
There are hard problems for sure; good solutions are even harder to come by. Much of it do with Jamaican emigrants but people please…
Here is a list of Canadian cities with a higher murder rate than Toronto’s:
Winnipeg, Vancouver, Edmonton, Regina, Saskatoon, Abbotsford, Halifax ( from http://www.statcan.ca/Daily/English/050721/d050721a.htm )
Demonizing a whole country’s people over 30 or so murders a year (half of the roughly 65 in Toronto) will not help solve anything. Neither will calling beauracrats “parasites”. Or blaming Liberals.
or picking on Bob freakin’ Marley.
“Her first born is 10, so do the math. When you have a kid when you are 16, then another 3 years later and so forth, you don’t exactly have time to get that PhD in astrophysics.”
Granted that 16 is too damn young to be having kids, what the heck is wrong with 18 year old women forgoing school and becoming parents if they want to? So long as they can support their offspring adequately, that is. You DO belong to a church that encourages that, do you not? (Or does the new Pope smile upon 18 year olds who get married and then use birth control when they do the horizontal tango?)
‘To characterize Jamaicans as “for the most part arseholes” is a racist statement plain and simple; minimally a massive slur, unkind and untrue.’
Observer, if you had read my entire post I think you just might understand that I wasn’t talking about all Jamaicans. That comment referred to many of the students that ended up at my high school. And it’s true. I was there.
Ok all you guys who dislike Kathys analysis or any comment come from white folk, do me a favour – go listen to Chris Rock – this is not about black , white or purple and pink spotted folk. It IS about a mind set that the world owes you a living, and God knows our welfare systems do seem to perpetuate that myth. There is no solution until these people are put to work (forcibly if necessary)
I repeat go listen to Chris Rock and then call him a racist!
Same problems in Vancouver except the races are Vietnamese and Indian (Sub-continent)
“Then I would leave a trail of dead drug dealers behind me and use a different handgun each time, purchased at the local bar or hangout. Once I finished with the locals I’d work my way up the chain until somebody stopped me.”
Hot damn, it’s Mr. Clark!
(Fans of a certain cheesy novelist will know what I’m referring to.)
Sean, nothing wrong with it, except that in this day and age (we’re not in Little House on the Prairie here), “being able to afford” anything requires a minimum of a college education. When (as happened to this woman) your husband dies or skips town or goes to jail, what do you do? Support your 4 kids scrubbing floors? A noble thing, but why not get a real education as a backup (and to make yourself a smarter mom and a better role model for your children).
Neither of us want people on welfare but that’s what you are
encouraging.
Multiply this woman by hundreds, maybe thousands, and think again about what you are supporting. A culture of dependency and ignorance.
Observer,
Where to begin? Have you ever listened to an interview with Bob Marley? I have. We used to play one as a party gag. He mumbles inarticulately for about an hour. Please present links to Real Player files of Bob Marley speaking and let everyone here judge for themselves.
Mozart is an unfair comparison? My dear, the concepts of “rhetoric” and “style” are clearly foreign to you. A pity. Literal-mindedness is a sign of stupidity.
Oh, so drugs are ok because “it was the 70s”. Well that’s deep! Do you know how many lives were destroyed in that decade by that attitude? And all the other people you mentioned were stupid for taking drugs too. Their talent doesn’t excuse their stupidity.
No, saying the Jamaica is “exporting its criminals” does NOT imply that ONLY criminals are coming here. It implies that SOME of the people coming here are criminals. Criminals and non-criminals are both perfectly capable of boarding airplanes. You don’t debate much do you son?
I did not call anyone an arsehole.
And why is there a long history of emnity between Trinidadians and Jamaicans? Because Trinidadians don’t like them! Which is what I freakin’ said, genius! It isn’t just “fair” (an overrated concept to begin with) to bring this up, it is what is called “making your point”. Something you would do well to learn.
Bob Marley was a minimally talented musician. The quality of his music aside, he has become a hero to millions of stoners and low lifes. If that is the best a culture can do — no cures for cancer, no marvelous inventions — then I think that really says something.
So Jamaicans are responsible (as you yourself said) for roughly half the murders in Toronto this year? Are they also half the population, Observer? What? Does? That? Tell? You?
Chris Selley: I will grant your point about the 53 year old dad. But you are such a pedantic pill that you throw me off my game.
Oh, and Observer:
Blame and demonization and calling parasites parasites have solved more problems in this world than you will ever know.
But do tell: how WILL we solve this problem? You don’t share your solutions with us! No doubt they involve everyone getting together to love one another right now! Lots of caring and sharing and suchness.
Do tell. Don’t keep this precious secret to urban decay and white flight from us another moment. We’re waiting.
Kathy,
If you’re sitting around with your friends and laughing while playing recordings of Bob Marley talking while he’s probably stoned then you have a lot of personal issues to deal with.
Rhetoric notwithstanding, using Trinis to bolster an argument about “bad” Jamaicans is like using Calgarians to bolster an argument about “bad” Torontonians.
Also, I did state implicitly that a disproportionate amount of crime is committed by blacks in Toronto. You are just using the crime stats to veer off and slag an entire country because you obviously have some inner issues with
blacks or Jamaicans. This crime issue has simply allowed you a forum to spew your latent hostility.
Kathy,
as an aside, whatever you say about the Jamaican people you can just say the same about Toronto.
Jamaica, as an independent country, has been around since about 1961. Toronto has been around since 1837. The populutions are roughly the same.
Toronto, of course, has had more than 10 times the monetary resources that Jamaica has had.
Any world beater Toronto artists or musicians of the same stature as Bob Marley? Cures for cancer? massively new inventions. Any Olympic gold medallists from Toronto? Great playwrites?
What’s the best Toronto can say?
It’s been around 4 times as long with more than 10 times the resources. Should have at least a dozen shining icons of culture by now. Where are they?
Observer:
What’s wrong with sitting around laughing at a stoner? (“Probably” stoned? When was Marley ever NOT stoned?) When stoned people sit around and listen to Bob Marley’s “deep” music, is that more acceptable?
What personal issues would those be? Please name them all. That I have a low tolerance for overrated morons and their pathetic admirers like you? If that’s an “issue” then I have a “issue” and I’m proud of it. The phrase “So What?” springs to mind. PS: only idiots use the word “issues”.
There is nothing wrong with using the opinions of Calgarians to criticize Toronto, or the Irish and the English, and vis versa. It is called “making an argument”. Comparing and contrasting. You were no doubt smoking up in the john during that part of English class.
Crime rates: a more reliable source that “the Trinidadian paper” reports that as one would suspect, Jamaica has the third highest crime rate per capita:
http://www.nationmaster.com/graph-T/cri_mur_cap
The US is 24th. Trinidad isn’t on there at all.
Observer, the last time I checked, Jamaica was a country and Toronto was a city. Again, guess you were stoned during geography, too.
Comparing Canada to Jamaica in terms of inventors, we come up with:
http://inventors.about.com/library/weekly/aa090100a.htm
Did you know that Japan has hardly any natural resources either? Yet they magically seem to be able to invent useful things, produce fine literature and movies and, more importantly, NOT KILL EACH OTHER EVERY WEEKEND! My, however do they manage??
Musicians: you’ve heard of Joni Mitchell, Leonard Cohen, Glenn Gould and Neil Young I expect? All of them have admirers around the world and have influenced countless other musicians.
Not that the corrupt, waste of time Olympics are actually important, but here are Canada’s gold medal athletes from 1984 to 2000 alone:
http://archives.cbc.ca/IDD-1-41-1344/sports/olympics_summer/
The word you were looking for was “playwright”. Here are some great Canadian authors:
http://particle.physics.ucdavis.edu/Canadians/authors.html
Please name five Jamaican authors. Go.
Like most moron leftist twits, you think everyone has some secret, twisted psychological “issue” that makes them think the way they do. But life is really so much simpler than that. I just don’t like criminals. Most of the criminals in Toronto are of Jamiacan descent. If they were Chinese I wouldn’t think too much of the Chinese either. But they aren’t. I’m merely reporting the evidence of my senses. If you or they don’t like what I have to say, they should STOP COMMITTING SO MANY CRIMES AND THEN PEOPLE LIKE ME WON’T BE ABLE TO BITCH ABOUT THEM ANY MORE.
Kathy, your sledgehammer arguments often work. This one doesn’t. If pointing it out makes me pedantic, I’ll live with it.
You’ve made a lot of assumptions about this woman based on probability, and that’s not fair. Nobody should be judged like that. All other things being equal (the shooting, the location, the children, etc.), if Livvette Moore had been white, you wouldn’t be drawing these conclusions � you’d have to treat her as the individual she was. It’s possible that she finished high school, that she didn’t know the club she was going to was dangerous (by Toronto standards), that she hadn’t stopped being a doting mother for five minutes in ten years. In other words, it’s possible that her situation wasn’t indicative of anything � just an innocent person gunned down for no reason. Actually, I’m pretty damn sure that’s what it was. It’s beside the point that it’s better to go to university than not to � there’s simply no evidence that Moore wasn’t a good person or that she did anything to bring this upon herself.
Kathy,
sitting around and laughing/mocking at successful people seems to be a Canadian pastime. The personal issues revolve around jealously and envy (for the fame and money not the drugs), personal lack of success and talent and many other things. Easier to mock others who have done stuff than to actually go out and make a success of yourself.
Your need to expand my comparison challenge to Canada accomplishments is telling on your part. Toronto has its own culture that is different from Vancouver, Calgary, Halifax, Montreal or St John’s. I mean it’s just a comparsion, it close enough. Doesn’t have to be country to country.
The invention list is too funny. Trivial pursuit, potato diggers and the abdominizer. Even if you just took the inventions after 1962 (Jamaician independence) you’ll see that there are slim pickings indeed for a country of 30 million.
And I didn’t say your psych needs was related to or driving your rage at Jamaicans or the crime issue. I simply said you were psycho for needing to entertain yourself by making fun of others.
Kathy, regarding the Trinidad murder rate, if you look at that site carefully, you will see that they have *no* crime data from Trinidad. It’s hard to be listed when you supply no data. However if you read the article or simply Google the issue you will see that the murder rate in Trinidad is in fact the 5th highest in the world.
And your pathetic attempt to justify your hostility to blacks/Jamaicans by way of “it’s the crime stupid” is belied by your comments elsewhere about moving to Utah. Utah the state has a higher murder rate than Toronto and Ontario. And Utah is also notably lacking in culture icons or accomplishments of any kind.
But Utah *is* a bastion of whiteness.
p.s. thanks for pointing out my typos for me.
Chris, if she had been white, I’d still be asking the same questions. Stupid behaviour is stupid behaviour. That there is a pattern of similar stupid behaviour among certain groups of people is indeed “probability” but what prey tell do your own arguments come from? Do you know every single solitary thing about, say, the war in Iraq? No, you have to tease out some kind of meaning based on what you know.
It doesn’t matter if it was five minutes of stupidity. It was still stupid. Everyone in Toronto knows, especially if they are black, that these places are dangerous. Decent places of entertainment (for whites or blacks) do not require security guards at the doors like this place did.
As for you Observer, I’m more successful and talented and have more money than you do, so I can make fun of whoever I like. I actually loathe the Canadian habit of “cutting down poppies”, precisely because I’m a successful person.
That’s not what we were doing. We were making fun of a jerk who thought he was a prophet of God, who thought the bible told him to smoke pot based on a single sentence that says no such thing, who thought that mensturating women were unclean, and who, quite frankly, had a filthy ratty hairdo.
So what, I ask again?
You can’t distinguish “cities” from “countries”, yet you insist we can’t compare countries with countries or let Calgarians comment on Torontonians. Which is it? You are simply changing the rules when I win.
You do know Canadians invented insulin, correct? The Spaceshuttle Canadarm? Again, please name some great Jamaican inventions and authors. You can’t because there aren’t any, and there aren’t any because that nation supports a culture of laziness, crime, promiscuity and drug use. Hell the Irish had all those problems and more and still coughed up James Joyce.
I have googled “trinidad crime rate” and can’t find your statistic. Please provide a link.
Utah has a higher crime rate than Toronto. However, it has the added advantage of letting non-criminals own firearms with which to protect themselves. And 30% higher disposable income. And lower taxes. And less pollution and better scenery. And Republicans.
And yes, it does have the added attraction of being a mostly white state. I’m not ashamed of the fact that I don’t admire what has passed for black popular culture since the death of Duke Elington and choose to avoid it if I can. There are American blacks who feel the same way, like Thomas Sowell and Bill Cosby, to name only two. Are they racists?
One point of my original post if you had bothered to read it was about white flight. Utah was selected to make that point. I would actually prefer Texas, but there are too many Mexican illegals.
I’m not at all shy about expressing my preference for being around people like me. If you examine demographics in the US, you will see that white conservative areas and black liberal areas are growing increasingly white conservative and black liberal. This is because normal people, if offered the chance, want to be around people like themselves. This is just human nature. that’s why official multiculturalism had to be shoved down our throats like the metric system.
Toronto under its current configuation of citizens is too noisy, too crime ridden, too expensive and too liberal. A small number of criminals are ruining it for everyone and a slightly larger group of politicians and other liberals like you are making it impossible to raise the obvious source of the problem. So I hope to leave when I can and take my tax base with me. I hope you have fun up here in Detroit North.
I’m sure when you get mugged the guy will let you go when you tell him all the nice liberal things you posted here.
Once your country has gone down the dark road of reckless and thoughtless immigration policies and welfare dependency, you are toast.
Then everything depends on how your political class deals with it and how vigorously they are supported by a strong citizenry.
Regrettably, politicians (especially liberal ones) like to get into insidious relationships with black leaders who can cause trouble on TV and deliver votes.
MSM types love to climb on board to create a victims’ aristocracy out of the perpetrators of big city crime.
Then drug profits enter the mix and begin to fuel a whole new level of gangster incentive and city corruption.
I see Canada going down the road the US has regrettably travelled, but without a huge conservative base that can fight back.
Take a look at the book by black journalist Tony Brown, “Black Lies, White Lies.” And you need to find out how much of the Jamaican component is fueled by the organized crime groups known as “Jamaican posses.”
Note to Kathy: sadly, you’re right about Mexican illegals in Texas. However, you can be assured that we are working on it. The Minutemen organization is growing and has a lot of friends. Illegal aliens and an insecure border together make the hottest topic for congressmen when they come home to have meetings in their district. The people are so ferociously against it that basically it is wiping all other topics of conversation off the agendas of the meetings.
Kathy, I have only time to address the Trinidad question for now. Despite your being obtuse on this point, (“don’t go to rivals and expect an unbiased opinion”), here is a number of info sources.
Here is the list of high murder per capita countries in the world:
http://www.nationmaster.com/graph-T/cri_mur_cap
anything above 0.10 (10 per 100,000) people puts you in the top 10 high crime country list.
The T&T gov’t refuses to put out official murder rates because of the explosion of crime down there, so they won’t show up on lists like these.
Doing the math oneself will get you this:
T&T has roughly 1.1M people.
http://cso.gov.tt/statistics/psvs/default.asp
is the official gov’t stats. You’ll see that it’s only good until 1998. You’ll see that they had just under 100 murders in 1998. so their per capita number is roughly 9 (.09) which puts them in the top 15 worst in the world in 1998.
here’s a handy chart from the Trinidad Express:
http://www.trinidadexpress.com/index.pl/article?id=83060749
YOu see that by 2000 the rate was about 10 and rapidly climbed in subsequent years so that by 2003 the murder rate per 100,000 has more than doubled to over 20. Which puts Trinidad in the top 5.
now, for 2005, the United National Congress (UNC), an opposition political party has the number of murders in T&T this year alone at 215. So already the murder rate is above 20 per 100,000 and it’s only August. Which puts T&T in the top 5.
http://www.unc.org.tt/modules/news/article.php?storyid=291
Here’s a Trini Guardian paper with the stats for the first 5 months of 2003 and 2004: http://www.guardian.co.tt/archives/2004-11-18/bussguardian16.html
You’ll note that it is almost 100 in each year in 5 months (which is consistent with what the UNC says). Which puts the rate at about 26 per 100,000 which puts in the top 5.
there are numerous other links. Why this was hard for you to find is puzzling to me. Methinks you weren’t looking too hard.
Hopefully, this will suffice for you.
This is all besides the point anyway.
Kathy,
re-reading the sad spectacle of your previous hostility-laced comments is just another reason why Toronto keeps voting against conservatives.
You should note that both in my original and second comment, I was actually agreeing with you in substance as to the cause of the homicides in Toronto. In fact, every single black person I know, more or less, agrees in general as to what the problem is but of course I only know the law-abiding ones. So there is no disagreement on causes, but conservatives like you just can’t resist denigrating people just to make yourself look superior. It’s not the message it’s the hostility-laced scapegoating messengers such as yourself.
I was and still am calling you on the superiority bit. Obviously you are unable to produce a list of world beater Toronto cultural icons because there just aren’t that many. Just as obviously, Canada is going to have many more industrial and scientific accomplishments, but we both know that your very first smart-alecky remarks were directed towards artists not scientists.
Whatever you want to say about Jamaican cultural icons or people, just save it and look in the mirror.
Ditto for whatever you want to say about Jamaican laziness or ingenuity. It’s not like T.O. businesses do much anyways except process the paperwork for natural resource companies that ship their output to the U.S. and then re-import the finished products to sell to their fellow Canadians. Who’s calling who a parasite?
“Hell the Irish had all those problems and more and still coughed up James Joyce.”
SPLORF!!!!
(Damn, it hurts to shoot coffee out the nose.)
Okay, that’s officially the best laugh I’ve had all month.
Actually, despite such well-known exceptions as the Kennedys and Colin Farrell, the Irish and Irish-Americans are traditionally very unpromiscuous. As late as the mid-twentieth century Ireland had a late-twenties average age of marriage and contraception was against the law there, two factors that one would think would lead to lots of unwed pregnancy, yet their illegitimacy rate was one of the lowest in Europe.
Unlike the pro-Jamaicans here, I am not genuinely offended, but I thought someone point this out.
“Someone SHOULD point this out,” I meant to say.
Hey, I missed this bit earlier:
“As for you Observer, I’m more successful and talented and have more money than you do, so I can make fun of whoever I like. I actually loathe the Canadian habit of “cutting down poppies”, precisely because I’m a successful person.”
I’m curious to know how you define success, Kathy.