At the Belmont Club, a lengthy list of the close calls INIFIL had already suffered due to their proximity with Hezbollah installations;
All the incidents of IDF fire reported in the press releases are clearly related to some kind of nearby combat with the Hezbollah. In one case the IDF fired on a village into which the UNIFIL had gone, but rockets had originated from the vicinity of the village prior. In another case, an Israeli aerial bombardment detonated mines all around a UNIFIL position. Those mines were presumably not planted by UNIFIL, but they were so close to it that the UN position caught fire. The UN observation post in Maroun al-Ras was hit by artillery, but we know from press reports that Maroun al-Ras was the epicenter of heavy fighting and the location of a Hezbollah bunker complex. The UN even ran a convoy from the Hezbollah “capital” of Bint Jubayl to another area. Bint Jubayl is well known to be the target of an IDF attack. Yet the UN felt that it was possible to move convoys through such areas, albeit at considerable danger.
One reason that they could was that UNIFIL was evidently in contact with the IDF. In a sentence which speaks volumes we learn that “One unarmed UN military observer, a member of the Observer Group Lebanon (OGL), was seriously wounded by small arms fire in the patrol base in the Marun Al Ras area yesterday afternoon. According to preliminary reports, the fire originated from the Hezbollah side during an exchange with the IDF. He was evacuated by the UN to the Israeli side, from where he was taken by an IDF ambulance helicopter to a hospital in Haifa.” This strongly implies that UNFIL was able to coordinate their movements with the IDF and that the IDF was willing to risk men and aircraft to help UNFIL.
Now a lot will be made of UN positions being “clearly marked”. However nearly all of the fire reported on UN positions with the exception of the July 23 indicident in Kiyam, where the 4 UN observers were killed today, were from artillery, which is an area weapon. Artillery, depending on the angle and range from which it is fired, has a certain dispersion even allowing for crew perfection. (In contrast UNIFIL took small arms fire from the Hezbollah between Kunin and Bint Jubayl and small arms can only be used when visual contact is made). Imperfections in shell manufacture, operator error, barrel wear etc can cause an artillery round to fall off target. It is not called an area weapon for nothing.
[…]
Their positions are manifestly so close to the Hezbollah; their convoys so at risk at being confused with mobile Hezbollah forces that only by the grace of God and the accuracy of the IDF have fatalities been avoided until now. They were willing to take the risk. Annan was willing to make the hay.You be the judge of Kofi Annan’s competence both in the care of his men and with respect to the accusation he has made against the IDF.
An interview with Lew McKenzie has more. (ram file) – an exerpt;
We received emails from him a few days ago, and he was describing the fact that he was taking fire within, in one case, three meters of his position for tactical necessity, not being targeted. Now that’s veiled speech in the military. What he was telling us was Hezbollah soldiers were all over his position and the IDF were targeting them. And that’s a favorite trick by people who don’t have representation in the UN. They use the UN as shields knowing that they can’t be punished for it.
.
this incident should keep CryBitchComplain network busy for days without ever digging out that the Hezbollah and the UN shared toilets and phone lines. CBCpravda will keep up the rhetoric until Isreal captures a couple of Iranians.then the story will be dropped completely.
anyone see the picture of the UN post on fire– what do they keep there- binoculars made of rocketfuel.
Great observers–
like Captain Peter”wrongway”Peachfuzz. looking the other way.
Hizballah Firing from Vicinity of UN Positions
There’s an amazing amount of press coverage of Israel’s airstrike on a UN observer post yesterday, but today’s UNIFIL press release (PDF) contains some information you aren’t hearing about on the nightly news.
Another UN position of the Ghanaian battalion in the area of Marwahin in the western sector was also directly hit by one mortar round from the Hezbollah side last night. The round did not explode, and there were no casualties or material damage. Another 5 incidents of firing close to UN positions from the Israeli side were reported yesterday. It was also reported that Hezbollah fired from the vicinity of four UN positions at Alma ash Shab, Tibnin, Brashit, and At Tiri. All UNIFIL positions remain occupied and maintained by the troops. …-
via LGF
pete
The facts, as I understand them so far, is that the postion or very near to it, was engaged by artillery for some time and then the bunker was engaged by a bomb, which destroyed it and killed the occupants.
I’ve not seen any sources to confirm this, but I would suspect that the bunker would have been built to survive a direct 155 hit.
I hold the professional competence of the Isreali army in high regard and I was was once trained to call in artillery fire and airstrikes myself. So on the contrary I think the exact opposite, the Isreali army are excellent shots and they are using weapons that will generally hit what they are aimed at.
Gray et al: go (re)read Ryan’s 03:08 PM comment, where he quotes the Geneva conventions. While it is certainly regrettable/distressing that civilians and foreign nationals are killed in military operations*, where such deaths are not the intent, the responsibility of the deaths lie upon those who deliberately placed them in such a situation. If there has been no “civilian shield” occurrence, then moral blame cannot be fixed.
*NB. While this conflict IS a military operation (by the Israelis), it is NOT a war. Wars are conducted between states, and Hizballah does not constitute a nation. Israel has not declared war on Lebanon. One may argue that, since the Lebanese government is de facto powerless, it is now illegitimate. As Israel’s security is significantly breached, it now de jure has the right to undertake what otherwise would be an invasion of a sovereign state.
Me No Dhimmi: Thanks for filling me in on Romeo Dallaire’s book. I haven’t read it, but was pretty sure he’d be “beat[ing] up on the UN and Kofi Annan.”
That’s why I was delighted to accept the Rotary invite, not my thing really, and then was shocked, appalled, and puzzled when Dallaire began to sing the praises of the U.N. I was thinking that maybe he was in line for some kind of posting, either at the U.N. or somewhere in Canada at the behest of the U.N.-loving Librano government…
‘Anybody know what he’s doing now?
oh dear. i anticipated some anger but damn. ok so i ll try to respond.
Mississauga Matt
“Left-wing gits still believe they and they alone represent “da Canadian values?” Amazing.”
I m not left wing. I m centrist. I dont claim to speak for the left.
“The quintessential left-wing view: Canada exists for the U.N., not the other way around. Similar to the way in which socialists believe that citizens exist for the government, and not the other way around.”
Non. I didnt say that. I did say that the UN gives Canada an opportunity to punch above her weight. And win some respect globally. Its easier being a Canadian traveller than an American one. For good reason.
Stephen,
We are on common ground. I take issue with UN bashing, which I find to be a most American trait. I support Israel. I support Israel’s right to exist. I think they ve earned it the hard way.
The Hesbos have to – theres no doubt about that. But deliberate strikes on UN personnel, despite pleas from the former to stop, and apparent confirmation from the latter that they would, is absolutely unacceptable. And I say that as a Canadian anggry at the fact that a Canadian has been killed. There is no justification.
The Israelis are doing what they have to. Is it an overly large response? to the extent that it affects civilians, yes it is. That said, it was a long time coming. I m no fan of religious fanatics, regardless of their religion, and I would like nothing more than to see Hezbollah turned into pulp.
People here are angry that roads are being fixed by the UN. They are, perhaps like their American counterparts, unaware that roads are used to allow foreign nationals to move to Beirut to be evacuated. There are thousands of Asian migrants stuck in the southern cities who cant make it to Beirut. The Chinese have every right to open that road.
The Kazemi case is one that I have very strong feelings about. I dont think the UN was to blame there. It was Canada that didnt show any spine or resolve. If Canada had wanted to, we could have made things a hell of a lot worse for Iran. For reasons even I cant fathom, we didnt. I dont have nice things to say about the governments response. I hope it changes. Though to be quite honest, I dont think Harper’ll do much.
As for Lebanon, you really gotta feel for them. I mean really, they ve been the battlefield for a proxy war between the Syrians and Iranians on the one hand, and Israel. I think the best solution would be to put in an international force. But where will they come from? And what powers will they have? I have no idea.
Soldiers of the UN misbehaving should not be blamed on the UN. The UN can only ask its members to contribute troops – it cant train them. The situation is troubling, and I agree that Peacekeeping needs a massive overhaul, but criticizing the UN is a bit over the top.
Its easy to forget that ICAO based in Montreal is also a UN body. It governs Air Traffic. These things are important on a global scale. WHO et al are also UN bodies and they do a lot of good things.
If the observers were there to report on violations of the truce, then the UN has a lot to answer for!
How could the UN allow “truce observers” to remain in Lebannon this late in the proceedings, for goodness sake the Israellis activated 18,000 reservists days ago.
This was yet another preventable tragedy.
It has been suggested to me that the Canadian soldier killed in Lebanon is the writer of this report:
http://www.ctv.ca/servlet/ArticleNews/story/CTVNews/20060718/mideast_lebanon_UN_060716/20060718/
I am told CTV is interviewed his wife, but no official info has been yet released.
Update: Just released on CTV main page
“middlemuddler, simpleton, er, middleton:”
And the name calling begins.
“I don’t know if you’ve noticed but the country elected a Conservative government and Harpers approval ratings are quite high.”
Yes I know. I voted for him. Well I voted against the Liberals. Well mostly I just voted against Paul Martin. Interpret it however you want.
“Anti-UN bias? There’s no bias here. The UN is a proven corrupt organization. But I guess you haven’t absorbed those facts either.”
There have been incidents, yes, but nothing that undermines the good that it has done. Tell me, does the fact that virtually every party in Canada engaged in systematic corruption, and that lovely concept of patronage, undermine the Government of Canada. Sure theres a couple of crooked elements within the UN, but I wouldnt go so far as to accuse it of being a corrupt organization. For the most part, it works. And well. Most countries, in fact most peoples, dont have a problem with it, except for our American neighbours, and their copycats across the border. More royal than the king, eh?
“Perhaps you should consider your own suggestion and take your “idealist” stance elsewhere.”
Why? Is this a conservative only blog? Or is it a blog run by a conservative. Like I said earlier, I m a centrist, nee left nor right. And it rocks.
The visceral hatred here for Kofi Annan is something to behold. One racist says he “couldn’t tell his ass from a teakettle.” (Pot, Kettle,–Black, get it? Hyuck! Hyuck! Yee-haw!).
Annan’s sin, though, is not immediately clear. Was it being critical of Israel for targeting UN observers, including a Canadian? I for one am glad that someone’s spoken up for that dead Canadian. Not a word out of the wretched Stephen Harper. Not. One. Word.
The IDF have strafed convoys of evacuees, shot rockets at Red Cross vehicles, used white phosphorus and cluster bombs, killed hundreds of civilians. And some of the people here probably don’t stop cheering even in their sleep. Wa-hoo!
What did someone say we ought to export to that part of the world? Civilization? No way. It’s obvious that we don’t have nearly enough of it for ourselves.
richfisher,
“Simpleton.”
I can be if you want me to 😉
“It’s obvious you don’t know the words to The Star Spangled Banner.”
C’est vraie. I m always confused as to whether its “O’ say can you see…” or “Jose can you see…”
“Or it seems from your comment , much of anything.
Fair enough, you sound like a dipper or lib, you’re supposed to be as dumb as a bag of hammers.”
If you say so.
“I’ll bet you could lead us all in a shrieking chorus of UUU LU LU LUing though.”
Okay.
“News flash: Knee jerk anti-Americanism is no longer a Canadian value.”
I m not Anti-American. I am, however, anti-Republican because most of the people who vote for them are, imho, racist intolerant bigots. Their base stands for everything Canada doesnt stand for. And I dont like that.
“You lost the last election with that clever party platform plank.”
Nope, didnt vote Liberal. But I do recall Conservatives losing the election before that simply because the Liberals played a very intriguing card: They suggested that Harper might actually win. This time round, it was apparent that the Liberals need to go and sort some things out. I didnt vote for the Liberals in either.
With apologies to Kate for the repost, but repetition is the only way some people ever learn:
While it is certainly regrettable/distressing that civilians and foreign nationals are killed in military operations*, where such deaths are not the intent, the responsibility of the deaths lie upon those who deliberately placed them in such a situation. If there has been no “civilian shield” occurrence, then moral blame cannot be fixed.
Statement by the Prime Minister on report of Canadian Forces member missing and presumed dead
July 26, 2006
Ottawa, Ontario
Prime Minister Stephen Harper issued the following statement today on Canadian Forces member Major Paeta Derek Hess-von Kruedener who is missing and presumed dead in Southern Lebanon:
“I am deeply saddened by reports that Major Hess-von Kruedener serving with the United Nations Truce Supervision Organization (UNTSO) mission in South Lebanon is missing and presumed dead as a result of an incident yesterday.
“Our Government fully intends to investigate the circumstances that led to this tragic incident. I have asked our military to investigate and work in conjunction with the Government of Israel and the United Nations to determine what occurred.
“This regrettable event underscores the dangers that our Canadian Forces members face, in all the roles they undertake, to serve our country with distinction and honour and provide assistance to citizens in countries far from our shores
Hey Middleton,
You have committed a false characterization, to whit…
“I am, however, anti-Republican because most of the people who vote for them are, imho, racist intolerant bigots. Their base stands for everything Canada doesnt stand for. And I dont like that.”
Racist intolerant bigots? I thought the republican base was evangelical protestant and conservative Catholics, the precise opposite of your characterization.
Peaceful people. Let’s have more of them in the middle east…
Middleton said: ” nothing that undermines the good that it, (the UN), has done”.
Do you, perhaps, have a list?
Thank you for the update. Harper didn’t say much, but he said something, at least.
Interesting to parse it, though. What happened was “an incident.” No comments about who caused the “incident.” He could have slipped in the bathtub.
The matter will be “investigate[d].” I’ve been around the block a few times. I know what that means. Even the BBC knows that the IDF blasted away after being contacted numerous times, asked to stop, and giving assurances that they would. But not Harper. He’s going to have it “investigate[d].”
He’s “saddened” by this “regrettable event.” But he’s damned if he’s going to name the folks who did it, much less blame them.
“Regrettable.” “Tragic.” I’m “saddened,” too.
What I find absolutely alarming is that the support here for Israel actually outweighs support for Canadian troops. The position was being shelled. They requested the Israelis to stop. The Israelis said that they would. And then they promptly fired a precision guided missile that killed a Canadian.
I ll be dead honest. Israel has a right to do whatever it wants, but it does not have the right to kill a Canadian citizen. They can go wage war on whoever they want, but the moment they take a Canadian life, you can bet every last cent that I ll be damn angry about it. Theres no excuses. They were told that UN people were there. They even agreed to stop. And this wasnt a stray shell, it was a guided bomb.
If it is a mistake so be it. But till its proven that this is a mistake, I expect Canada and Canadians to make a hell of a lot of noise about it. We are not obligated to tolerate the death of a Canadian citizen, especially in avoidable circumstances. All you Israel lovers can have whatever opinions you want, but your allegiance lies to Canada first and foremost. If you dislike that, go to whoever you want to fight for.
Come off it, Dr. Dawg. I say that Kofi Annan can’t tell his a** from a tea kettle and that makes me a racist? My kettle is white, as a matter of fact. Give me a FRIGGIN’ BREAK.
Kofi Annan’s remark, immediately after the strike on the U.N. post was that the Israelis had made a “deliberate” attack. How would he know? I would suggest that if he was inept enough not to get the U.N. “observers” out of harms way, then my suggesting that he can’t tell his a** from a tea kettle is perfectly justified. I could have said something a lot harsher.
The English language has a number of expressions which speak volumes using only a few words: he knows which side his bread’s buttered on, if the shoe fits wear it, etc., etc. Now the political correctness police–your’re an officer in this outfit, are you?–are going to censor those of us who use this linguistic shorthand? Might I, as politely as I can, suggest, Dawg, that you shove it?
I can’t believe I’m having to “defend” my comments, but calling me a racist has got my Irish up. Whoops. I guess you’ll now be calling me Irish-phobic…
In reference to an earlier post about Canadians reporting to Romeo Dallaire.The retired General was appointed to the Senate last year by Paul Martin and sits as a Liberal Senator, so i don’t think it is him they report to
Briefing the Council behind closed doors, assistant chief of U.N. peacekeeping operations Jane Hull Lute suggested the attack on the observer outpost may have been deliberate.
She said 21 strikes had occurred in the immediate vicinity of the U.N. position before it collapsed, killing the four military observers. She said that unlike in other areas, there had been no firing by Hezbollah militia units around the U.N. base.
She’s either
a) lying,
b) wrong, or
c) it looks really, really bad
http://www.voanews.com/english/2006-07-26-voa51.cfm
Nemo2
“Do you, perhaps, have a list?”
Here. Not my list, but it serves the purpose:
1. Food Aid: The UN’s World Food Programme is among the most effective multilateral bodies bar none. They feed 104 million people a year in 80 countries. They feed people in war zones, natural disaster situations, health emergencies, and just plain poor countries.
Methinks thats 104 million more people than would have been the case without the UN.
2. Aid to Refugees: There were 17 million asylum-seekers, refugees and the like in 2004 who got help from UNHCR. They both help refugees directly and work to ensure that governments meet their responsibilities to these displacees.
Some parts of the world are hell to live in . People have no choice but to leave. But they need help to leave. The UN provides that.
3. Protecting Children: UNICEF has built a reputation as an advocacy and service powerhouse, with programs ranging from immunizations to AIDS prevention to education and protection against exploitation.
4. Intervenor of Last Resort. In peacekeeping but also more broadly, the UN gets involved in messes when noone else will. The meltdowns in Congo and Liberia are prime examples. When the U.S. and Europe have no interest in getting involved, and there’s no regional player with the will and capabilities, the choice is often letting slaughter and mayhem continue untrammeled, or throwing the problem to the UN. The UN deserves credit for taking on these quagmires.
5. Fighting AIDS. Self Explanatory.
6. Bringing invisible issues to the fore. Were it not for the UN, an awful lot of suffering around the world would go even less noticed and addressed than it does today. Landmine victims, Marburg fever and cholera sufferers, child soldiers, modern-day slaves, lepers and thousands of other populations beleagured by one or another either visible or obscure plight have a place to turn at the UN.
Not the complete list I saw, but some things up there are worth thinking about. I think the last one is key.
Middleton & Dawg
Would you two please grow up? There is a difference between fantasy and reality. The death of civilians and/or neutral personnel in any military conflict is a given. The Geneva conventions acknowledge this, and acknowledge that the possibility of such deaths do not forbid the action attempted.
This is morally obvious. To insist otherwise is to cede victory to the vicious.
The point at which non-combatant deaths ought to prevent a major battle is usually very much greater than one.
Please, just because bad things happen does not mean one must immediately find a scapegoat. Our Prime Minister’s response befits a head of state. What do you wish him to do? Declare war? Calm down.
It goes without saying that my deepest condolences and sympathy go out to the families of the deceased.
Henry
“Racist intolerant bigots? I thought the republican base was evangelical protestant and conservative Catholics, the precise opposite of your characterization.”
Yes, I suppose after you take away the fact that they think they re superior to all others by virtue of their religion, and believe anyone who doesnt believe the same as them is damned to hell, well, I suppose you could argue that they are nice folk who just really dislike anyone who dares to want to be treated as an equal.
I ve dealt with the religious Republicans. They re racist – Middle East/South Asia=terrorist, intolerant – Gay people should either become straight or get back into the closet, and bigoted – i m right you re wrong, go to hell.
The claim was that the UN does a good job.
Here is an independendent view from only two sources:
First:
web.amnesty.org/wire/september2001/east_timor
“UN fails to guarantee justice and human rights in East Timor”
~~~
Second:
w.foreignaffairs.org/19940901faessay5137/saadia-touval/why-the-u-n-fails-it-cannot-mediate.html
Council on Foreign Relations, a nonpartisan and independent membership organization has a huge website on “Why the U.N. Fails: It Cannot Mediate”
“Summary: Its diplomatic debacles in the past few years demonstrate one thing: the United Nations cannot mediate. It has too many mouths to speak with one voice, lacks the resources needed for political leverage, and diminishes the credibility of its own promises by its incoherence….. and no amount of revamping the United Nations will correct them……
….Between 1987 and 1991, the United Nations mediated a series of agreements that helped end fighting between Iran and Iraq, led to the withdrawal of Soviet forces from Afghanistan, established a broad-based coalition government in Cambodia, and ended El Salvador’s chronic civil war. ……..
… In hindsight, those successes clearly stemmed from unique circumstances. Successful U.N. mediation was made possible by the exhaustion of local parties and the unwillingness of external powers to continue supporting clients whose usefulness had expired with the Cold War.
….Those heady days inspired the false hope that the United Nations could be an effective mediator of international disputes.
Since then, U.N. negotiators, however talented and experienced, have tried for years to resolve or reduce conflicts in Afghanistan, Angola, Haiti, Somalia, and the former Yugoslavia, all without success.
In fact, U.N. mediation seems to have extended or aggravated many of those disputes, as belligerents have been able to manipulate the organization?s obvious weaknesses……
It is increasingly apparent that the United Nations possesses inherent characteristics that make it incapable of effectively mediating complex international disputes…..
…. It does not serve well as an authoritative channel of communication.
….It has little real political leverage.
….Its promises and threats lack credibility.
…..And it is incapable of pursuing coherent, flexible, and dynamic negotiations guided by an effective strategy.
Those limitations are ingrained.”
Thanks, ian, for pointing out that Romeo Dallaire is now a Liberal Senator. I figured there were extenuating circumstances for his back-pedalling on his real feelings about the U.N. in his public speaking forays a few years ago.
Bingo! Senator Romeo Dallaire. Money for life and it doesn’t even matter if you barely show up or if you sleep through the proceedings…
Thanks for saving me the effort BB.
Unfortunately this occurence is another example of the UN failing to act.
The UN observers note that Hezbollah has set up shop next to them and file a report. They dont move or try to get them evicted, they just file a report.
The UN oberservers notice that Israel and Hezbollah seem to be involved in a military conflict. They file a report. They still dont move or try to get rid of hezbollah.
The UN oberservers notice that they are coming under some pretty direct shelling directed at hezbollah. They file a report and ask that Israel stop shooting. They still dont leave.
The UN obeservers notice that the shelling has not stopped. They file another report and ask Israel to stop shooting. They still dont leave, nor does the UN ask them to get to safety.
The UN notices that it is no longer being updated from the observers. They file a report and conclude that the base has been destroyed and their personnell are dead. Still no action but now Koffi gets to go on camera and say something.
If at any point in the story the UN and their personell had acted the story might have ended differently, but by not acting and instead sitting inside a bunker that is being shelled four people are dead.
Sounds like a typical UN operation, watch, listen, file reports but do not act…
Henry
Acknowledging that collateral deaths are a “given” in conflict is a truism, not a legal or moral defence for specific acts.
I recommend “Britain has a Big Problem” (video) at LGF.
Henry,
If Canadians arent going to make noise when Canadians are killed, then who is? Its not a matter of growing up. The Canadian killed was in a UN post. He was not in the wrong place at the wrong time.
I think Harpers response was what I expected. Theres no need to declare war, but there is a need to send a strong clear message: We will not tolerate it so make sure you dont touch ours. Its certainly better than saying “mistakes happen”, because then they wont be too worried about making mistakes. They need to be a little more careful with their targetting. And Canada does not have to accept mistakes.
Henry
“Our Prime Minister’s response befits a head of state.”
Harper is Head of Government, not Head of state. Minor and inconsequential, but worth knowing for future reference. The Head of State for Canada is usually either the Governor General (as the Queens representative) or the Queen herself.
Way to split that hair middleton. No hair too small for you to split, no sirree…
Gray, you are being obtuse. The point I’ve been trying to make (and I’ve not been subtle about it) is that no legal/moral defence is necessary (there are caveats to the generalization of this statement, and these deal with the “anticipated good”).
Please deal with the argument, not mischaracterizations or side points. Such is the mark of the beast, er, troll.
Stand with Israel.
Stand with Prime Minister Harper.
Stand with Canada and the United States.
Long live freedom and democracy. …-
60 Targets Attacked Today in Lebanon
Israel Defense Forces ^ | 26/07/2006 | Israel Defense Forces
IDF carried out airstrikes against approximately 60 terror-related targets in Lebanon today (Wednesday), striking 45 buildings and headquarters used by the Hezbollah terror organization. Among the structures was a number of weapons storage facilities, three of them south of Tzur. A number of rocket launch sites and access routes leading to them were bombed as well to hinder the terrorists’ ability to launch rockets against Israel. Rocket launchers were also attacked, including a truck-mounted mobile launcher southeast of Tzur. The truck was seen fleeing the site of a rocket launch and was attacked aerially upon arriving at its hiding place. Members of the terror cell, who attempted to flee the area to another hiding place, were struck in a followup airstrike. Likewise, during the afternoon the Air Force bombarded a headquarters of the terror organization Amal in the vicinity of Anatzrya.
IDF is also continuing artillery bombardment of rocket launch sites throughout southern Lebanon. Since Operation Change of Direction began IDF artillery batteries have fired upwards of 45 thousand shells.
IDF will continue to operate decisively to defend the citizens of Israel against the terror threat from Lebanese territory and to bring about conditions leading to the safe return of the two kidnapped soldiers, Eldad Regev and Ehud Goldwasser. …-
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1672823/posts
henry
Such is the mark of the beast, er, troll.
And so is name calling . . . . .
OK for the sake of argument what is your argument?
That collateral deaths are a given? Conceded as a truism.
that no legal/moral defence is necessary
Are suggesting Isreal is under no obligation to justify its acts legally or morally?
“Are you suggesting”
Sorry about the typo
“Britain has a Big Problem” (video) at LGF.
Watched it, you are correct. They have a problem.
New Kid:
I’d never heard the “ass from a teakettle” expression before. “Ass over teakettle” I’m familiar with. So I Googled the former, and found a handful of references. Hence I do apologize.
My kettle’s white too, btw. (No snappy comebacks at this point, please.)
Henry:
Would you two please grow up? There is a difference between fantasy and reality. The death of civilians and/or neutral personnel in any military conflict is a given. The Geneva conventions acknowledge this, and acknowledge that the possibility of such deaths do not forbid the action attempted.
But the Fourth Geneva Convention takes a dim view of collective punishment. And deliberate attacks on convoys of civilians and Red Cross vehicles are a no-no.
Now go back to sleep, and don’t forget to keep cheering.
Did anyone see the ‘cease fire’ news conference this a.m. with Condi and Kofi? I was half asleep (still on holidays) and thought a reporter’s question (about Anan’s anger over the U.N. bombing) seemed to be directed to him alone but Condi answered for him? Did anyone catch that?
Sigh, Grey… you are also humour-deprived. Be a mensch…
I will not repeat my original comment. Kate has been tolerant to this point.
See smalldeadanimals.com/archives/004344.html#c92129
So, as to your question:
“Are you suggesting Isreal [sic] is under no obligation to justify its acts legally or morally?
I addressed this issue in my response to Middleton & Dawg
See smalldeadanimals.com/archives/004344.html#c92171
“He was not in the wrong place at the wrong time.”
Surely you jest… Middleton.
Colin,
What part of “minor and inconsequential” didnt you see? I think its worth knowing for future referrence. I didnt berate him or make comments about anything.
Dawg,
“And deliberate attacks on convoys of civilians and Red Cross vehicles are a no-no.”
Agreed. Are they happening, or are you hoping?
“Now go back to sleep, and don’t forget to keep cheering.”
Sleep is indeed too precious to waste. But I persist in thinking that some things are actually important to discuss.
“He was not in the wrong place at the wrong time.”
It would seem so wouldnt it? But when you think about it, he was in a UN bunker, not out in the open, and certainly not in a Hizbollah bunker. The Israelis had been made aware that this was a UN bunker. They acknowledged it in their radio signals after recieving pleas to not fire at the UN bunker.
And he wasnt hit by a stray bomb or stray shell. That was a precision guided bomb. It was aimed specifically at the bunker.
I stand by my contention that that bunker was for all intents and purposes a safe place to be. He wasnt in the wrong place at the wrong time.
I expect Canada to make it clear that such incidents will not be tolerated in the future. Israel can do what it wants, but Canada is not obligated to endure Israels mistakes.
Henry,
“And deliberate attacks on convoys of civilians and Red Cross vehicles are a no-no.”
“Agreed. Are they happening, or are you hoping?”
I dont know if its already happened, but if things get worse, it might happen.
Heres an excerpt:
“The embassy in Beirut has advised Sri Lankans in the south to head to the capital if they can, with or without passports.
But it is urging them to avoid travelling in trucks which are being targeted by the Israeli aerial bombardment.”
Some of the foreigners there dont have the means to get out. The Israelis for their part, have no issues with destroying trucks roads and leaving these foreigners stuck in the middle of a conflict that they ve played no part in.
Middleton: “I did say that the UN gives Canada an opportunity to punch above her weight. And win some respect globally.”
In response: Liberal Senator Colin Kenny speaks the simple truth (full text only for subscribers):
http://www.canada.com/ottawacitizen/news/story.html?id=e9a03eb0-6076-486b-b227-004437e24842
‘The senator said the idea of Canada as an “honest broker” mediating international conflicts is a mirage, simply because no country or world body is ever asking the country to take on that role.
Mr. Kenny, chairman of the Senate’s national security and defence committee, also said Canada needs military assets if it wants a voice in global conflicts. Decades of government neglect of the Canadian Forces meant Canada’s forays into foreign affairs have rarely had any teeth, he said.
“For years, Canada has tried to have a foreign policy without having a defence policy, and (past governments) wondered why no one gives a damn about what we think,” he said.’
Not much punching, and Afstan takes all we have.
Mark
Ottawa
Middleton,
I stand corrected on terminology. Let me amend it to “Harper gave a royal response” 🙂
(Lest anyone think I am being flippant, the point is that PMSH did his job well.)
As to your 6.14 comment – this is more moderate than the earlier. However, stating “We will not tolerate it so make sure you dont touch ours.” is nonsense. Yes, we should hold them to account…as in “Israel will need to account for the manner in which it conduct its military operations.” Afterwards…not now; they are busy. And should our government “not tolerate it” now, what are our options? Think about what you write…
But I have thought about what I ve written. I dont care much for a shoot first ask questions later. This particular incident was wholly avoidable.
“And should our government “not tolerate it” now, what are our options?”
When you make a firm statement, you are increasing pressure on Israel to exercise that extra little bit of caution. It is important that they exercise that extra bit of caution if only because it saves Canadian lives. If we were to simply ignore it and write it off as a mistake, the Israelis would be just that little bit more careless and perhaps take out another Canadian.
It is important that Canada make it clear that mistakes arent tolerable because quite frankly, mistakes shouldnt be made, certainly of this magnitude, where a guided bomb is dropped on 4 foreign nationals AFTER they ve indicated their presence.
There is some value to taking a harsh and loud approach. It increases pressure to be more careful. The Israelis know we arent going to declare war on them. But they should also know, that as allies, we expect better treatment than the Hizbollah. Sounding off helps.
As far as I m concerned, Canada has to make it clear that it will not tolerate such accidents. We re simply not obligated to. I suspect that if the man killed was an acquaintance of yours, you d be yelling bloody murder. Why not extend this to cover all Canadians. Like I said, if we dont stand up for Canadians, who will?
Middleton: “Canada has to make it clear that it will not tolerate such accidents.”
What then do we do to express our absence of toleration that will have any effect in the real world?
See my post at 07:23 PM.
Mark
Ottawa
Middleton, I see from your 7.19 post (my taking a passing Dawg by the ear), that I have not got the central and pivotal point across.
Let us create the following fable, as you suggest might happened:
Israel attacks a convoy of trucks carrying civilians and hundreds of innocents die.
Is Israel to be faulted? Only if Israel knew they were non-combatants. The opportunity to strike a probable Hizballah supply convoy outweighs the possible evil (as in misfortune) of slaughtering a relief convoy. The moral guilt belongs to Hizballah and it supporters.
Is this clear? And do we agree?