[I]sn’t it interesting that a sale of Canadian-built weapons to the Middle East right now is subject to U.S. Congressional ratification but has not been debated and cannot be obstructed in any way by the Canadian government, which presumably might still have an MP or two with an opinion on the matter? That’s globalization for you, I guess.
Well the Canadian government is not allowed to have any say on the matter. General Dynamics is an American company and they can use their factories however they like. Canadian government interference, in the form of opposing or stalling it, could result in this turning into one of those controversial NAFTA Chapter 11 cases whereby GD could sue the government for adversely affecting its investments in the country. Stalling or opposing the creation or delivery of these vehicles does, I think, amount to adversely affecting GD’s investments in Canada. Correct me if I m wrong.
Frankly, I think its none of our business. These vehicles are being sold by the Americans. We should just be happy that we re getting some of the money. Its called capitalism. Theres money to be made. Political ideology makes for great soundbites. The real world prefers money.
Of course, given the strong response I got for criticizing American Foreign policy, I would love to hear from the “pro-America” crowd on this one. Politics and Diplomacy, no matter what the protestations of the Administration in charge, are driven by self interest. Right now Bush needs the Saudi Monarch to stay on top. If it topples, there is a very real possibility that radical Islamists could gain power. The Saudi were not forced to implement Democracy at an earlier point (1950s, 1960s) because the US wanted a stable oil supply and didnt care for democracy. Now its a little too late – the Islamic revival that started with the Iranian revolution and the mobilization of Arabs during the Afghan Mujahideen, has resulted in too many important people being too closely linked to Radical Islam. The stakes are simply too high to implement democracy. Theres a very real possibility that someone with links to radical Islam could win.
Following the link there is a sublink to a Frank Zappa interview on Crossfire. Considering it is 20 years old it is still relevant today.
The question posed was should there be government censorship of musical lyrics (or any other speech)
Zappa pretty much chews up his opposition, but I think that it would be pretty naive to think that rock videos and ganstra lyrics don’t promote a certain lifestyle and that which goes with it.
Zappa argues that they are just words and as such banning them opens the door to further government censorship.
I agree with that position but in a perfect world, bad ideas and words can be balanced by better ideas and better words.
But were Zappa alive today, I wonder what position he would take?
What if one side of the political spectrum controlled all the information? That despite their best efforts, those with alternative points of view were not able to get their voices heard via mass media.
Whether you would think its the left or right who controls mass media, if there is not balance in the media, then while there may still be free speech, ultimately it is only the speech that is propagated over the mass media channels that is heard by the populace. As such it has the ability to influence far more than that which is not broadcast.
A good indication of the power of media is that in every coup the conquering force takes over the media as a first order of business.
Middleton is correct, this is American developed arms technology, made under license here in Canada. It’s a benefit that they’re produced in Canada, but the control over who gets the technology remains in the US. I believe the Canadians would have to go through a similiar process in order to manufacture the LAVs in Canada.
I too, on this issue, concur with Middleton, especially on the subject of Saudi Arabia. (Along with the oil wells, of course), Iran has long wanted to control Islam’s holy cities of Makkah & Madinah, an undertaking that would consolidate their Shia leadership and force the Sunnis into line.
Is the General Dynamics plant unionized? And if so, is it CAW?
The LAVs are apparently destined for the Saudi National Guard (internal security force).
WE might disagree with many aspects of Saudi Arabia, such as its support for Wahhabism etc., BUT the National Guard is a key organization engaging anti-government Islamist extremists within the country.
So ensuring it has the kit it needs to continue engaging them is in OUR interests too.
Ward “What if one side of the political spectrum controlled all the information?”
The best way to avoid that situation is to keep government out of the business of dictating what people can and can’t say. Big Brother is often tempted to do this but the results are always ugly.
“American developed arms technology, made under license here in Canada”
Actually no. LAV’s are a Swiss/MOWAG design, built under licence in London Ont. Orginal ownership was GM Canada.
So General Dynamics is selling, via a US contract, LAV’s that are Swiss technology but built in Canada.
Bruce R. writes:
“It has been suggested in other places that the sale to Saudi Arabia was part of the American purchase price for recent anti-Hezbollah statements by the Saudi government.”
Now wait; this is the same ‘unidentified expert source that one finds in so many articles – only to find out that the source is simply oneself tape recording one’s own voice.
I think that the Saudis are genuinely disturbed by the rise of Iran; they don’t have to be bribed to be against Hezbollah, which, with Hamas, is the guerilla arm of Iran.
The basic threat in the ME is the rise of the Persian Empire (Iran) and no Arab state wants to be under its rule. The focus has shifted; it isn’t simply Israel-Palestine (and I repeat, the Arab States were never interested in the Palestinians; they were opposed to democracy aka Israel). The issue now, is Islamic fascism, which is a tool of Iran to subdue the ME – and the West.
As for Canada’s involvement, as pointed out by others, it’s not the issue. Harper is intelligent enough to see what is going on in the ME – even if our Liberal Press and the Liberal Party ‘don’t get it’..and simply see all conflict as reducible to children squabbling, requiring only a ‘time out’ and ‘shake hands’.
There is plenty of government-corporate collusion in the new globalism to complain about but the sale of private sector weapons systems to a US ally (at least for now)by a US based Military contractor is really not Parliament’s business…particualrly as the manufacturer in question will make the shipments to Saudi via a US port after the vehicles have go to a US GD contractor to be retro-fitted with proper weapons and communications systems not installed at the Canadian plant.
Tempest in a tea pot syndrome here.
If Bruce R wants to get upset with Canadian weapons contractors perhaps he will fume about the Canadian contractors of leading edge weapons sighting systems who only got this US technology because they made them for the Canadian military…then they turn around and sold systems to China in contravention of the security terms of franchise for this US defense technology…now that was worth bithching about but we saw not a peep about this act of profit motivated treachery with a US-hostile nation in our Parliament or in the stilted Canadian MSM or Leftoid blogosphere about this…..but they did notice in the US where it ran as a major MSM scandal story.
To this day the US military is cautious about the technology allowed to be built in Canada….we certainly haven’t any weapons tech that is a worry to US security.
Just for everyone’s information, in the ’80s the Canadian government(can’t remember if it was Liberal or PC) sold about a thousand or so LAV’s to the Saudi government. If I remember correctly it was, and likely still is, the largest onetime sale of the LAV. So, the fact is that the Saudi’s already have the LAV. This batch is probably to update those bought previously that are now out-of-date technology wise or worn-out.
RE:”then they turn around and sold systems to China in contravention of the security terms of franchise for this US defense technology”
And then who knows who got this technology from the Chinese?
Our Canadian soldiers are the ones who could take the bullets in the back.
IMHO, the Libs and Dippers can be dangerous equivacators who will not recognize the differences between sworn friends and allies and those who are sworn to actively oppose Canada and her allies.
WL Mackenzie
“then they turn around and sold systems to China in contravention of the security terms of franchise for this US defense technology”
Cant seem to find anything on it. Can you point me in a helpful direction?
The LAVs for Saudi Arabia will probably be built in the UK as Alvis has the sales rights for the LAV in the Middle East. They will probably be shipped in chassis form to SA where the weapon systems, etc, will be installed from kits provided by other OEMs.
As for Canadian companies selling US technology to US foes, you might wish to research the subject a little deeper. Usually, in quoted cases, it turns out that the technology was originally Canadian, and US authorities mistakenly thought that their purchase of said technology gave them (the US) a veto over subsequent Canadian sales to other countries.
Cheers
“”American developed arms technology, made under license here in Canada”
Actually no. LAV’s are a Swiss/MOWAG design, built under licence in London Ont. Orginal ownership was GM Canada.”
Actually, no. The original Swiss design has been extensively redesigned at the London plant. This is actually a Canadian-designed vehicle with a Swiss-designed suspension and hull.
Also re the earlier post on the sales of the LAV-II to Saudi; that was actually in the early 1990s, not the 80s, following the 1991 Gulf War. Those vehicles would now be at the midpoint of their life cycle.
That’ll teach me for talking off the top of my head without checking things out.
WL Mackenzie,
I m still waiting for any information regarding the sale of American weapons by Canada to China.
I havent found anything on it, and I m not entirely convinced that the case was as clear cut as you make it out to be. In fact, I have my doubts about the whole thing ever occuring in the manner in which you ve presented it.
The US can start telling us to do AFTER they start testing THIER cows and buying our lumber with out screwing us.
We all know what the chances of that are going to be.
Middleton: the current Saudi regime are NOT “radical Islamists”? Gee I’d like to see what real ones look like, then!
SOMAS
SOMAS,
The Saudi Royal family is an US ally – hence the handholding between Bush and the Saudi King. The Saudi royal family co-opted the Wahhabi religious movement – the Wahhabis control the religious sphere, the Royal family controls all the political spheres- diplomacy etc. The Saudi regime is NOT a radical Islamic regime. Its policies are very pro-US and support for the US is strong amongst the elites and many members of the Royal family, largely because of the fact that they were educated in the US and maintain strong links.
Letting the Wahhabis do as they wish is acceptable as long as the Saudi royal family controls everything political – and basically holds onto its power.
It would be misguiding to label the Royal family or, indeed, the Saudi regime as radical islamist, because while they are content to let the Wahhabis do as they wish, they are not particularly religious themselves. They are by virtue of their links to the west, considerably modern. I think it would come as a shock to you that Saudi Arabia boasts many top end designer stores from France Italy and the US- top end stuff selling miniskirts – right in the middle of Riyadh. Why would a country that demands a burqa be worn in public, allow this? Because thats where the royal family and elite does its shopping. And they wear those little nothings at private house parties. Its not only not secret, but openly tolerated.
Further, there’s a rather subtle difference between a religious fundamentalist and a religious extremist:
A religious fundamentalist considers anyone who does not hold the same beliefs as doomed to go to straight to hell.
A religious extremist considers it his duty to send anyone who does not hold the same beliefs straight to hell.
To add anecdotal confirmation to Middleton’s statement regarding the Saudi dichotomy:
In the mid 1980’s a coworker and his wife, (the latter being of Lebanese extraction and Arabic speaking), were returning to Riyadh (from, I believe Greece); with them in the lineup at the departing airport was an attractive young Saudi woman, partially wearing a low-cut top and a short miniskirt, (of the “We can see what you had for breakfast” variety); she was accompanied by two small children, a boy and a girl.
Just before landing in Riyadh, all the Saudis, as is their wont, disappeared into the airplane washrooms to return wearing abayas, thobes, etc. The Saudi female protagonist remained recognizable through her children.
Waiting for Customs clearance at Riyadh Airport the young boy started getting antsy, and, while playing around, tore the veil from his mother’s face. The mother immediately started berating him, in Arabic, for “Shaming her in front of these foreigners”…….(the selfsame ‘foreigners’ who, only a short time earlier, could have identified her panties in a lineup).
These endemic contradictions permeate all aspects of Saudi society and are generally consistent in their inconsistency……..I used to tell new arrivals that “being in Saudi could make them either the most gullible or cynical of individuals, because, after spending some time here you’ll believe ANYTHING”.
The LAVs for Saudi Arabia will probably be built in the UK as Alvis has the sales rights for the LAV in the Middle East.
In that case, JMH, why is GDLS-C listed as a primary contractor in the DID article? Quote follows:
As noted earlier, the total value if all options are exercised could be as high as $5.8 billion, with no industrial offset agreements. The principal contractors will be:
*General Dynamics Land Systems in London, Ontario, Canada (LAVs)
*ITT Aerospace/Communications in Fort Wayne, IN (SINCGARS, Night Vision)
*Harris Corporation in Rochester, NY (Radios)
*Raytheon Corporation in Tucson, AZ (PAS-13)
My guess is that these will be built in Canada, not the UK. As Donovan says, your mileage may vary.
I don’t think the big issue is the LAV’s going to the Saudis – although it does tend to make you sit up and take note. The real question for me is whether the Canadian government should have some say to whom Canadian-built weapons systems are sold. Obviously the Americans think their gov’t should have the ability to decide where their stuff goes.
Yeah, Nemo….just look at Middleton! He believes that so long as you SAY you’re an ally of the West, even though nearly all your BEHAVIOUR contradicts this, then you are one.
SonsofMonkeysandSwine: The Saudi Royal, (ruling) Family has everything to lose if the Islamic even-more-extremists take over; they try and keep a lid on, while pandering to one group, giving lip service to another, and bribing yet another.
It’s a tightrope sans net. They may not ‘like’ the West, but they’re dead without us…or U.S. as the case may be.
Just so you know.
The contract to sell those vehicles to SANG was in the works for about ten years.
Heres a link to the web page with accompanying video.
http://www.gdlscanada.com/main.html