A global warming disciple was troubled by the Goracle’s presentation in Regina;
The slide I found particularly interesting/shocking/sad, was his new(?) slide containing a graph of human population growth over the past couple hundred-thousand years. It started off good. He pointed at the beginning of the graph, showing the population of humans on Earth from 200,000 years ago, and referred to the “rise of humans.”
Cool beans. So he believes that Homo sapiens evolved from other hominid ancestors, right? Nope.
In the very same breath, he then continued to explain that according to his religious beliefs, this “rise of humans” was God’s creation of mankind – apparently 200,000 years ago. His graph then changed to include the caption “Adam & Eve” above this starting point.I started laughing, and I had to consciously blink my eyes and double-check the screen to make sure I was seeing it properly. Let me get this straight…the guy’s entire presentation exists in order to present people with the scientific data showing that human-caused climate change is a fact. He does his very best to include references in all of the slides, showing to any thinking person that this data is not made up, that it comes from the forefront of our scientific research (there was many slides containing data from Science journal, and a few from Nature).
He tarnishes his beautifully crafted presentation by not only stating his belief in creationism – but by placing the words “Adam and Eve” right on the slide (which is actually a scientific graph) as a caption explaining the beginnings of mankind.
Something doesn’t add up here. On one hand, he is using science to predict the disastrous outcome of our current actions and rally support for taking proactive measures to make sure bad things don’t happen, but on the other hand, he is clinging to stone-age beliefs that another very important area of science has proven wrong (that we humans evolved from other forms of life, and that every organism on Earth has a common ancestor).
And of course, all the religious people in the audience get to feel good knowing that this important politician sees no dilemma in using this this zero-sum belief system. I should also note that at this point in the lecture (I’ll call it the schism) he stated that there is no conflict between science and religion. He appeared as though he wanted to say more about this, and even mentioned the Scopes trial, but then decided to continue on with the slideshow instead.
Whaaaaa???? You tell me that anthropogenic climate change is a scientific fact (to the degree that science can use that word), mankind came from God’s creation of Adam and Eve 200,000 years ago, there is no conflict between science and religion, refer to the Scopes trial, and then shrug it off and move on with the show?
Odd that none of the media in attendence picked up on this. Sharp as tacks, that crew.
An outraged Tim Blair – “He put the terrible words RIGHT ON A SCIENTIFIC GRAPH? Forget Korans down toilets, people. This is serious.”
(Global warming meets creationist science. Why is it that Warren Kinsella is nowhere to be found at times like this?)
h/t to Mississauga Matt.
Shane – precious few let even carefully controlled experiment backed by solid theory and confirmed to six-sigma dissuade them from their pet perversions. Most tune out discussions based on carefully formulated axioms and conducted with the utmost of logical rigor.
Abiogenesis is not something that you believe in. It is something that you demonstrate. Barring demonstration, the only evidence for it is the present existence of life. Existence is not proof of uniqueness. It irks me that the question is generally scientifically defined in such a way as to permit only one answer – random chance. Proving uniqueness by definition is scientifically indefensible. It is generally done this way because we scientists are generally opposed to admitting total ignorance.
“Darwin recanted everything on his deathbed!”
He most certainly did not; this is another fable the creationists/superstitionists like to pull out of their hat with no evidence whatsoever”
For the record, the leading “young-earth” creationist groups say Darwin almost certainly did not recant on his deathbed.
This is the type of argument typically heard by those who are either not current or well read in the debate. For example, read the article “Arguments we think creationists should NOT use” at: http://www.answersingenesis.org/home/area/faq/dont_use.asp
Sorry, my tags were messed up on that last entry – the second line was quoted as well.
Crabgrass: “Yes, it was in fact a joke.”
As is everything that the Goracle says.
Tenebris,
Thank you for your many thoughtful responses. I was trying to see if DaninVan was being consistent in his statements.
I’m genuinely curious how atheists deal with the abiogenesis issue. Of course, it’s entirely possible that there’s some mechanism responsible for “life’s” origins that we don’t (yet? ever?) understand. I haven’t heard much of anything on this issue over the past few years, and was wondering if research has been continuing on it to any appreciable extent. If some form of abiogenesis is deemed necessary for atheism to make sense, does this mean that atheists believe in spontaneous generation?
65-million Poet ethanol plant coming to Marion, Ohio
Poet*s new slogan == *Then. Now. Always. Poet.* is kind of ironic because Poet is a new name in biofuels. It’s a rebranding of Broin, a 20-year old company that currently operates 19 production facilities in the United States and markets more than one billion gallons of ethanol each year.
And we can now add a 65-million gallon a year ethanol plant to Poet’s empire with the upcoming groundbreaking of a plant that will be built in Marion, Ohio. There will be a ground-breaking ceremony for the new $130 million plant on May 16.
The plant will use *21 million bushels of locally grown corn and produce 178,000 tons of premium Dakota Gold Enhanced Nutrition Distillers Products(TM),* Poet says. Poet is eight more ethanol plants in various planning stages.
========== AutoBlogGreen.com
Does this mean they could be serious about it? =TG
darwin a theory is a theory until it is proven. global warming is a theory until it is proven, i should say manmade global warming, because as we all know global warming is a fact. but you know the proof is ta proof and when you got good proof you got ta proof. carry on.
I think this might explain everything:
http://scienceblogs.com/islandofdoubt/2007/04/adam_eve_and_al_gore.php
irwin daisy, good stuff.
The naturalist assumption underlying evolutionary theory a priori excludes any supernatural explanation for anything. The evolutionist can simply rule out of bounds any scientific evidence that contradicts his hypothesis. If you want to talk about origins, you need to work through the metaphysics first, then you can start to look at the science. On those grounds I stand proudly as a rational-minded Young Earth Creationist. The proofs of the existence of God and His essential nature militate against long-duration, undirected development of the universe and life itself.
As to Gore, he’s trying to market his book. ‘Nuff said.
C’mon people , concentrate . All this and still no concensus ? Hurry up , or I’ll have no choice but to get the UN involved .
I simply cringe when I hear lefty Canucks who obviously suffer from inferiority complex, spew out their: “Americans are retards”
Al Gore it seems, has come to preach his nonsense to sold out audiences in this country, I’ll bet more than in the US if compared per capita.
In the future, when this whole sham is exposed (The sooner the better, I hope…This GW thing is starting to get real scary and it’s not the message but the messengers I’m talking about)
Canadians will probably be viewed as one of the biggest suckers.
I love Stephen Harper but man he’s spending a lot of dought to “play the game” in order to get this country back on track. There’s no other way though, a majority is needed and small increments of Conservatism at a time where the MSM will always be there to hiss and piss on it 24/7. The lefty damage is severe.
“The beginning of the end of a strong and free Canada started when Pierre Elliott Trudeau was first elected Prime Minister.”
My history teacher when I got him drunk
Don’t forget to thank Mo Strong for drafting up Kyoto in order to execute his plan to destroy the west. It’s simply incredible how no one in power or of any influence is willing to stand up and expose this evil plot for what it is. Not a single soul.
Harper must have been reprogrammed at the Bilderberg meeting a few years ago. It appears there was a Liberal microchip installed in his brain to override his inherent CPC tendencies, all common sense, logic, and economic and taxation reform.
Now as the controllers turn up the power to Harper’s microchip gradually, he is nearly in full compliance with the Eco-Nazis. Well that’s what Lizzie May inferred, that is to say if Harper is Chamberland, then by extension, then those in the Global Warming movement are indeed the NAZIS.
Al Gore Strikes A Blow For Intelligent Design (h’mmm … ‘Gore’ + ‘Intelligent’ ???)
smalldeadanimals blog site ^ | May 3, 2007 | Kate MacMillan (sda)
Y2Kyoto: Al Gore Strikes A Blow For Intelligent Design …-
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1828010/posts
“The evolutionist can simply rule out of bounds any scientific evidence that contradicts his hypothesis. ”
With all due respect there isn’t any. If you choose to personaly accept a religious “frame” superceding any “scientific” frame be my guest. However don’t try to assert that somehow you religion has a rational basis without actually backing that up with a genuinely falsifable scientific hypothesis. To do as you’re suggesting is bad religion and bad science.
I don’t dislike creationists on general principle (I’m an athiest within a highly religious family). But some creationists (fortunately none in my family) try to pass their beliefs off on some kind of scientific or rational basis. That’s wrong headed in my opinion, ultimately that line of think doesn’t cohabitate within the same “frame” as science does ultimately.
Mathematics is a different story however.
Lies , damn lies and suzukitistics.
http://www.canada.com/ottawacitizen/columnists/story.html?id=79741e83-a182-4c11-a60f-d6091622426d&k=29044
I also do not think Mr. Gore intended his audience to take him seriously. However, the discussion on this thread has captured my attention.
I am one of those young-earth creationist earth scientists. I am a Geophysicist by training. At the University I attended, one could get his degree in geophysics either through the B.Sc. side or through the Engineering side – I came through the Engineering side which was a small superset of the B.Sc. program. Although much of what I was taught is compatible (structural geology, sedimentology, stratigraphy, minerology, crystalography, geophysics), the general theory in Historical Geology is incompatible. A young-earth Creationist believes that the most of the geological record was deposited during the flood described in Genesis. I have never worked for a creationist organization but there are two which do good work.
Answers in Genesis provides resources that are explained in more general terms. It has plans to open up a multi-million dollar Creationist museum this summer in Kentucky.
The Institute For Creation Research attracts many people with advanced degrees in differing fields of science who are involved in the field of Creation Research.
I will not change the discussion here to the scientific points demonstrating the validity of Creationism but I would like to point out that I have met many science-degreed people (biology, geology, physics, and others) who clearly do not believe in evolution. To be sure, they do not believe as I do, but they do not believe that evolution is credible. Christians may have a monopoly on young-earth Creationism but they certainly do not have a monopoly on the rejection of evolution as credible.
Further to Tenebris’ comments (all valid) about why evolution is completely incompatible with Christian Theology: Scripture teaches that 1) in the beginning there was no death, 2) death was introduced into the Creation as a consequence of sin, 3) sin entered the Creation through mankind, and 4) this death affects all life in Creation. Therefore Christian Theology insists that fossils were deposited (a record of death) after man sinned. Evolution teaches that death is natural, and that its original cause is independent of man. At the core of Christian Theology is the Resurrection. The Resurrection is a natural consequence of sin being completely defeated. When sin is defeated, sin’s natural consequence (death) is undone and the Resurrection is the result. Any Theology that attempt to harmonize evolution with any belief in God insists that God build death into the “system” from the beginning.
One more thought. The Scripture prophesizes (foretells) about a time in history where a certain philosophy will take hold of the residents of the earth. Although it is not quite evolution, it is the same philosophy upon which evolution is based.
2 Peter 3:3-6
3 Know this first of all, that in the last days mockers will come with their mocking, following after their own lusts,
4 and saying, “Where is the promise of His coming? For ever since the fathers fell asleep, all continues just as it was from the beginning of creation.”
5 For when they maintain this, it escapes their notice that by the word of God the heavens existed long ago and the earth was formed out of water and by water,
6 through which the world at that time was destroyed, being flooded with water.
The phrase “all continues just as it was from the beginning of creation” is another way of saying the Geological Principle of Uniformitarianism which can also be stated as “The Prsent is the key to the Past”. Dr. Charles Lyell who is mentioned in the URL was a contempory of Charles Darwin. The questioning of the coming of the Lord which is a precursor the the end of the world is a natural consequence of old-earth thinking. After all, if one does not believe in a special beginning to the Universe, it is somewhat difficult to believe in a special ending to the Universe.
Therefore the Scripture predicts a time when men will not believe that great catastrophies have taken place on the earth (such as the Flood) and will not believe that a greater catastrophy is yet to take place. It also states that these will be mockers (perhaps of those who do).
Hmmm…
“Since it cannot be observed, evolution is every bit as much based on faith as any other theory. ”
It’s been observed both in the laboratory and more recently in the wild.
The only reason why evolution is conterversial is because some religious people thinks it contradicts their religious dogmas. Those same people might be willing to believe in things like black holes or Einstiens Theory of Relativity, not because they are more “solid” but beacause they don’t contradict what they choose to believe.
“Furthermore, the galaxy is not composed of stars. It’s composed of matter, is it not?”
Before you can answer that question you need to determine how many angels are required to split a hair.
“Furthermore, recent findings are showing that the so-called Neanderthals were not only more intelligent (larger brain at least) and more physically robust than modern man, but were in fact blonds with high cheek bones and apparently better looking than Cro-Magnon.”
I also heard Neandrathal chicks were easy lays but that is still conjecture at this stage.
Tenebris “That, to the best of my understanding, is the core Christian gospel.”
But you don’t have a monopoly on Christianity. I don’t claim to have knowledge that supersedes yours. But there are “Christians” who feel differently than you do. You may not consider them to be “Christians” but I do. We’ll just have to agree to disagree on this point.
Irwin Daisy “Yes, indeed. According to the book ‘Freakenomics’ the executional method to achieve this, in NA anyhow, is the lefty celebrated practice of abortion.”
I call BS on that. Women were having abortions long before Freakonomics was written. Freakonomics postulates the _effects_ of abortion on a society statisticaly. That’s not the same thing as the _motives_ of individuals who have abortions.
Stop reading Ann Coulter. I’d like to shag her too but she’s an idiot.
Tenebris “I’m genuinely curious how atheists deal with the abiogenesis issue”
Simply put we don’t know yet. However we do know that the complex organic molecules that are the precursors to life are widespread not only in our solar system but probably throughout the galaxy.
Life on earth may have extraterrestrial origins. We don’t know this for a fact. But we do know for a fact that bacteria and bacterial spores can survive (and in some cases thrive- the space station has bacteria growing on its outer hull) in vaccum for millions (perhaps billions) of years. We also know that bacteria trapped within rock can survive reentry (not just a theory anymore, we recently have real world confirmation).
I’m comfortable with a bit of ignorance. I hope that science (and possibly mathematics) may eventually be able to fill in some of the blanks within my lifetime but I may never know.
Once a year I’ll spend several weeks hiking and backpacking through the mountains in complete solitude for 2-6 weeks. That experience satisifies the same part of my brain that used to get “fed” by my religious beliefs.
And on ocassion magic mushrooms work.
Anyone wondering about the theory of evolution or related topics who want to hear the evolution side without being filtered through an intelligent design creationist should visit The TalkOrigins archive.
Jose – Shane was curious about how atheists deal with the abiogenesis issue, not me. I usually no longer bother even trying to clarify the issue. I tend to upset the flakes/fakes on all sides.
If the IDers have done any one good thing, it’s been to force at least a minimum of definitional clarity into the general discussion. No, evolution as commonly understood has not been demonstrated, neither in the lab, nor in the wild. What is seen is the expression of previously suppressed genetic traits.
Think! Hopeful monsters aside, functional change that can clearly and unambiguously be described as evolutionary requires more time than we have available for our experiments.
As to your assertion that “the complex organic molecules that are the precursors to life are widespread not only in our solar system but probably throughout the galaxy”…complex from a chemical and physical perspective does not mean that we are ready to cook up some primordial soup. Put bluntly, no one has managed a soup with even the slightest hint of a potential for climbing Darwin’s ladder. The reason there is very little talk about abiogenesis is that we are stuck.
“Life on earth may have extraterrestrial origins.”? Spare me! Even cheap scifi authors can hardly get this chestnut past their editors anymore.
“But we do know for a fact that bacteria and bacterial spores can survive (and in some cases thrive- the space station has bacteria growing on its outer hull) in vaccum for millions (perhaps billions) of years.” No we do not. That is a flat-out falsehood. Quote your source, please.
Jose
The whole creation thing may not be falsifiable but there is one thing that definitely is.
Abiogenesis. Sorry, has never happened, will never happen, all scientific experiments confirm this. (no exceptions)
Therefore logic dictates that something Intelligent or something that was living must have always existed and been there before time as we know it began.
believe what you want! but those are the facts.
Tenebris-
The Space Station’s microorganisms are hitchhikers; they were carried there on ISS hardware and by the assembly crews themselves. “When the Station went up, microbes went with it,” says Roman. “Microbes will be the last ones in the Station, too.”
http://science.nasa.gov/headlines/y2000/ast26nov_1.htm
These are _terrestrial_ bugs carried by man into space. Some of these organisms have been demonstrated in vacuum. And in one case they have survived reentry through the earth’s atmosphere. Sounds crazy I know but the centre’s of some meteorites don’t exceed room temperature upon reentry.
Mind you that’s NASA, they’re just one big Engineering cult.
Jared- I thought “all experiments” confirmed that the meaning of life was 42. I’ve not yet come across the same “all experiments” and “facts” that you have. Could you email me the phone number of your dealer? I infer by your post that he’s moving some quality product. At the moment I’m doing bong hits of self-replicating RNA molecules but somehow I feel something’s missing.
Anyone wondering about Creation or related topics who want to hear the Christian side without being filtered through an evolutionary bias should visit The Institute for Creation Research.
http://www.icr.org
Tenebris; Gore’s faux pas has had the unintended effect of focusing the public’s attention on totally irrelevant (not to mention irreverent) pseudo- scientific, cocktail party chatter.
Does anyone actually believe that humans AREN’t fouling this planet?! Forget global warming; focus on the depletion of aquifers, contamination of the food chain, contamination of potable water sources,
huge increases in health problems in cities/areas with endemic smog, and yes, I’ll include AIDS although that’s more of a result than a cause.
Talk about pissing in the soup!
The thing is, it really doesn’t matter whether individuals buy into remediation or not, sort of like standing in front of an avalanche, convinced that it isn’t really happening.
That was the whole point of ‘Ages of Gaia’; Lovelock was simply pointing out that the Earth will continue indefinitely, just not with Humans on board.
MetalGuru, 5:43 pm said,
**Al Gore it seems, has come to preach his nonsense to sold out audiences in this country, I’ll bet more than in the US if compared per capita.
In the future, when this whole sham is exposed (The sooner the better, I hope…This GW thing is starting to get real scary and it’s not the message but the messengers I’m talking about)**
============
What I find really scary is the sold out bit. It*s so hard to swallow. That Canadians would go to a snake oil show in such numbers.
Sheeples just lack the energy to Google. They prefer to go to the Mcdonald*s drive-in of Goresky enviro – convenience.
There should be a similar traveling show outlining practical things people are doing now. Let Goresky pedal the fear fluff. = TG
Gore’s statement is a slim ‘link’ to Intelligent Design.Convenient for him, but lacking in application.
The irony here:
The Theory of Evolution claims ‘In the Beginning’ it was a mess, but things are getting better, and we continue to evolve to perfection.
The story of Creation states that God made the world perfect, but since sin the world is deteriorating.
I see that the earth is looking old, but Gore and Suzuki are not the saviours.
Gore is still a wacko who is plain out of his mind blabbring this global warming poppycock and producing all that HOT AIR from his PIEHOLE
Regarding evolution, Jose said: It’s been observed both in the laboratory and more recently in the wild.
To clarify, natural selection can be observed not evolution. Evolution requires the addition of genetic information, natural selection simply “chooses” the most advantageous combination of existing genetic information.
Conflation of these terms unfortunately causes no end of confusion in these debates.
This is really a big difference because natural selection leads to a loss of information while evolution demands it be added in. Think of dog species as an example; selection of existing traits leads to a variety of breeds but in doing so these distinct breeds no longer contain the diverse genetic information that would have had to been present in the original dog kind.
That said, if you can provide evidence that there has been observable evolution in this sense (the addition of genetic information) please let me know.
Denis- Your argument is the last line in the stand by people trying to justify Genesis. Natural selection is a mechanism of evolution, that’s been posited all along. To suggest otherwise is a bit silly.
The nominee for the SDA dipshot of the week goes to Jose who with this Sci-fi titdbit reminds us that “trekkies” and “greenies” are not far removed genetically:
“Hardly, there are “subscribers” to the AGW meme who think we should agressively grow our population build arcologies, colonize space and all that stuff”
..Yes. yes Jose I can see Bob Heinlein has influenced green thinking here but there are a lot of “sustainability” “enviromentalists” like Moe Strong ( another self professed “futirist”)who muse over to the soylent green solution to population control. 😉
Then, after denying the green fringe is steeped in population control dogma he throws a curve from deeeeep left field with this:
“We do have a very loose but de facto population control policy- call it “let the brown babies die.” It’s moraly and economicaly wrong in my opinion.”
I won’t ask who “we” is, but I suspect Jose’s insinuation is that anyone who concludes both GW and sustainability hysteria is sci-fi, is a defacto “brown baby genocide”…in fact, mean ol conservatives..right Jose?
Until Jose can qualify who “we” is in this statement, I must accept it as being an accusation of collective guilt for western culture….who he accuses of “Brown baby genocide”…
…and that is a theme song right from the narrow-minded lefty hymn book.
Jose has inside knowledge. The rest of us are in the dark, as the natural world intended.
If we knew what Jose knows, we*d all be day trippin* to the next level. = TG
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How many of the following arguments have been forwarded by the ANTI-Global Warming proponents? These are the mainstays of their debate, and yet each, in its own way, is a LOGICAL FALLACY … meaning … they are not arguments at all:
“Ad Hominem” — Al Gore is a socialist, and wishes to become rich by getting funding for “green” projects. Therefore, his environmental claims are false.
“Ad Hominem Tu Quoque” — Al Gore drives cars and flies in jets, therefore his information about the environment must be false.
“Appeal to Authority” — Expert on the Constitution Ann Coulter says Global Warming is a myth.
“Appeal to Belief” — America is a good and just nation, therefore America cannot be harming the environment.
“Appeal to Common Practice” — The rest of the world will not adopt environmental practices that harm their profit taking, so the United States should not, either.
“Appeal to Consequences of a Belief” — If you believe mere man can harm God’s creation, earth, then you cannot believe in God.
“Appeal to Emotion” — Advocates of Global warming are just jealous of success; they don’t want you enjoying big houses and big cars.
“Appeal to Fear” — The Global Warming myth is just the vehicle for world domination by the UN.
“Appeal to Flattery” — You are the people who made America great, and now Al Gore wants to make you feel guilty.
“Appeal to Novelty” — Trees NEED Carbon Dioxide, how can man’s production of this compound be “pollution” or harmful?
“Appeal to Pity” — Global Warming advocates wish to destroy America’s industry and economy.
“Appeal to Popularity” — Environmentalists want to change everyone’s lifestyle, and no American will willingly give in to such arrogant demands.
“Appeal to Ridicule” — If Al Gore is worried about hot air, he should just shut up.
“Appeal to Spite” — Al Gore has a big house and spends a fortune on energy; he just wants YOU to cut back.
“Appeal to Tradition” — Climates change; always have, always will.
“Bandwagon” — Since environmental restrictions would fall most heavily on those with the most money, Global Warming advocacy is a form of Class Warfare.
“Begging the Question” — Man cannot destroy the earth, because, after all, the earth still exists.
“Biased Sample” — Adapting to climate change, rather than restrictions on business, is the only feasible strategy, according to a panel of scientists funded by EXXON.
“Burden of Proof” — Global Warming alarmism is just “theory” … none of the catastrophic events they predict have occured.
“Circumstantial Ad Hominem” — Democrats are Socialists who hate businesses, so of course they embrace environmental restrictions in the name of “Saving the Planet”.
“Composition” — A volcano, a natural occurance, spews far more pollutants than an automobile. Therefore, preventing automobile pollution is useless.
“Confusing Cause and Effect” — Of COURSE Americans are using more energy for heating and air conditioning; after all, the weather has been more severe lately.
“Division” — North Korea has an envoy to the UN, and the UN supports Global Warming prevention measures. North Korea opposes the USA, therefore the UN wishes to destroy America.
“False Dilemma” — If we fall for this Global Warming nonsense, America can no longer enjoy prosperity.
“Gambler’s Fallacy” — America has thrived for 200 years without worrying about environmental calamity.
“Genetic Fallacy” — It’s no coincidence that all the Global Warming alarmism is being promoted by the Liberal Media.
“Guilt By Association” — Of course PETA endorses Al Gore’s Global Warming claims; they’re the people who blow up labs with animals inside.
“Hasty Generalization” — Global Warming advocates predicted a record number of hurricanes last season, but there were fewer than usual. Therefore, these people don’t know what they’re talking about.
“Ignoring A Common Cause” — A Global Warming rally was cancelled due to an unseasonable and severe ice storm; the irony was hilarious.
“Middle Ground” — Toxic levels of mercury cause many health problems, but clean-up is expensive. A compromise allows polluters to sell “mercury pollution credits” to other states.
“Misleading Vividness” — In the USSR, industry and their economy was DESTROYED by government control. Therefore, the government should not regulate OUR industry.
“Personal Attack” — This whole “Earth in the Balance” nonsense is all about Al Gore’s ego and need for attention.
“Poisoning the Well” — Al Gore is a “Sore Loserman”, so whatever he promotes must be a loser as well.
“Post Hoc” — Bush wins the election, THEN this Global Warming controversy explodes. Clearly, this is only an attempt to undermine Bush.
“Questionable Cause” — Bovine flatulence emits more methane than humans produce; why wouldn’t THAT be the cause of the hole in the ozone layer?
“Red Herring” — When America is weakened by Global Warming prevention measures, the terrorists will be cheering.
“Relativist Fallacy” — Nobody I know has been harmed by any environmental hazards.
“Slippery Slope” — If the Kyoto Treaty is signed, then America forfeits any claim to sovereignty.
“Special Pleading” — Driving an SUV is a symbol of success; these environmentalists only wish to PUNISH the successful.
“Spotlight” — Rightwing radio hosts have the largest audiences, therefore opposition of Al Gore must be the popular and correct stance.
“Straw Man” — We are told that ONLY Government Action can solve a crisis.
“Two Wrongs Make A Right” — These radical environmentals will put spikes in trees, to injure loggers. These environmentalist wackos are all terrorists, and we cannot listen to them.
——-The above are not “arguments”, they are logic fallacies masquerading as “debate”, but which are intellectually dishonest and make no valid point.
whats needed is a big old hot air balloon to contain all that HOT air eminating from AL GORES big fat PIEHOLE
Figured Gore was being sarcastic. However, as an engineer, my coping strategy for global warming has been to install an air conditioner. I look forward to the outcome.
Christian faith can predicate the Bible being true for the purposes of our salvation. Also, moderate christians for thousands of years have given unto Caesar that which is Caesar’s, and gotten on with the business of living.
Scientific faith is a newer religion, with it’s own sects and creeds and schisms and indulgences. Let’s all hope (some might pray) and work hard to prevent it from spiraling into wars of intolerance, like those that racked Europe in the 1600s and early 1700s.
As science becomes less and less accessible to the common person (rigid body physics is pretty damn simple, global warming models considerably less so) the whole affair is becoming more and more like a religion, with its priests and zealots. I recommend “The Golden Bough” for a detailed (if old) treatment of the development of religion from magic (science).
We are already talking about sacrifices (carbon credits) for the appeasment of an uncertain future which we cannot control, but are afraid of. We have parties in our society who claim to be able to predict and partially control this force of nature if only we give up power to them. Sadly, there is no way to demonstrate objectively that the sacrifices have any effect, but think of the consequences that might occur if you default them. If we don’t sacrifice a pregant hippopotamus the Nile might not flood!
Sooner or later one of the climate change prophets will get himself martyred, and then we are going to have REAL TROUBLE with these people.
“Since it cannot be observed, evolution is every bit as much based on faith as any other theory. ”
It’s been observed both in the laboratory and more recently in the wild.
– Oh, really? Hmm. I wonder why it’s still a theory and not a fact.
The only reason why evolution is conterversial is because some religious people thinks it contradicts their religious dogmas. Those same people might be willing to believe in things like black holes or Einstiens Theory of Relativity, not because they are more “solid” but beacause they don’t contradict what they choose to believe.
– Actually another unprovable theory. The reason why this commentor doesn’t have faith in evolution is because, to me, it’s illogical.
“Furthermore, the galaxy is not composed of stars. It’s composed of matter, is it not?”
Before you can answer that question you need to determine how many angels are required to split a hair.
– No comment.
“Furthermore, recent findings are showing that the so-called Neanderthals were not only more intelligent (larger brain at least) and more physically robust than modern man, but were in fact blonds with high cheek bones and apparently better looking than Cro-Magnon.”
I also heard Neandrathal chicks were easy lays but that is still conjecture at this stage.
– Findings/opinion/belief based on new evidence. Did I say otherwise?
Jose, evolution didn’t bless you with the intelligence to play on this blog. The sooner you realize this the better off we’ll all be.
Now run along and eat the mushrooms that you mentioned.
Truthseeker, your fallacy – begging the question, also known as circular logig. Please stop taking up piles of room on this blog with your pop philosophy lesson. BTW – ad hominem – anyone who questions science of global warming or Kyoto is “oil shill.”
Denis- Your argument is the last line in the stand by people trying to justify Genesis. Natural selection is a mechanism of evolution, that’s been posited all along. To suggest otherwise is a bit silly.
Edward Blyth, a creationist, published the concept of natural selection 24 years before Darwin’s “Origin of the Species”. In fact, Darwin’s work was very much influenced by that of Blyth.
The difference between the works of these two men wasn’t the science of natural selection – the real difference was their philosophical application of the science.
So it is actually “a bit silly” to suggest that natural selection has always been considered a mechanism of evolution. Maybe I could even say your argument is simply “the last line in the stand by people trying to justify” evolution.
The pink elephant of all this is that no level of scientific evidence or proof is sufficient if you’ve already decided that the Book of Genesis trumps any knowledge obtained via the Scientific Method.
Jose,
Just replace “the Book of Genesis” with “materialistic & uniformitarian presuppositions” and you have it about right!
By the way, you may at some point want to actually address the content of my comments. Rather than address my point that the increase in genetic information required by evolution has not been observed or that the origin of the concept of natural selection has nothing to do with evolution, you simply make unsubstantiated (and mostly unrelated) claims.
Then again your responses here typify the average level of discourse for the proponents of evolution (i.e., “you’re stupid – it did TO happen”).
“…no level of scientific evidence or proof is sufficient if you’ve already decided that the Book of Genesis trumps any knowledge obtained via the Scientific Method.”
I’d just like to know if the scientific method is ever going to be applied to macroevolution, or if macroevolution will continue to be given a pass. If I’m off base here, then please cite any testable/repeatable experimentation that has proven macroevolution to be true. I’m dying to see it.
William Huges eng,
Great comment! I was almost rolling on the floor… classic dry!
**Figured Gore was being sarcastic. However, as an engineer, my coping strategy for global warming has been to install an air conditioner. I look forward to the outcome.**
For those who have lock-jaw about considering the EV, the bio-diesel,[and you can buy them used, ready to go], are an excellent compromise choice. Hard to believe… but,
2. Looks like used diesel to Bio-diesel is catching on.
Ahl Motors’ models can accept biodiesel after minimal modifications. When oil prices spiked more than two years ago, sales took off and have grown steadily since then, fluctuating with the rise and fall of the cost of diesel, according to Ahl.
Although the Northern California lot attracts mostly politically progressive customers–including actor Peter Coyote, who bought a 2006 Volkswagen Jetta TDI last fall–Ahl also sees a fair share of shoppers who vote to the right.
*I have sold to conservative Republicans just because these cars make economical sense,* he said. (Ahl Motors’ only other salesman has a mobile phone ringtone that exclaims, *Democrats piss me off,* whenever Ahl calls.)
Whatever the political motivation of buyers, the longevity and fuel-efficiency of diesel cars is a key selling point for Ahl’s customers.
An odometer clocking 100,000 miles may indicate old age for a gasoline engine, but that’s a sign of youth for diesel cars like Volkswagen TDIs, which are built to last for half a million miles.
*I have never seen such passion for an automobile that was not a limited edition sports car or a collector’s edition,* Ahl said. *They’re sporty, economical and they go forever.*
In tests by AutoWeek magazine last year, a Volkswagen Jetta TDI achieved 49.9 miles per gallon, besting the 42 miles per gallon of a Toyota Prius. With or without biodiesel, which hovers around $3.50 per gallon in California. Such fuel economy can translate to savings at the pump. Some of Ahl’s customers have come from as far as San Diego and Seattle intending to replace a hybrid Toyota or Honda with a Volkswagen TDI and run it on biodiesel.
======================= Cnet News
http://news.com.com/Diesel+dealers+provide+a+pipeline+to+rare%
2C+green+cars/2100-11389-6180409.html?part=dht&tag=nl.e703
http://tinyurl.com/ysee7s
Stings a little when an *actor* is better informed than I am.
Lots more in the story including ladies in the business who drive classy older bio-Caddys.
Damn, those folks are smart in Northern California. = TG
Our hostess has requested “Take your extended debates and/or flame wars to private email. Thank you.” Seems like this chat about Al Gore’s personal beliefs has degenerated into something else…
Why the personal attacks? Personally, I respect everybody’s right to have differing opinions; I just don’t want them imposed on me.
Thank you.
William Huges eng,
Great comment! I was almost rolling on the floor… classic dry!
**Figured Gore was being sarcastic. However, as an engineer, my coping strategy for global warming has been to install an air conditioner. I look forward to the outcome.**
For those who have lock-jaw about considering the EV, the bio-diesel,[and you can buy them used, ready to go], are an excellent compromise choice. Hard to believe… but,
2. Looks like used diesel to Bio-diesel is catching on.
Ahl Motors’ models can accept biodiesel after minimal modifications. When oil prices spiked more than two years ago, sales took off and have grown steadily since then, fluctuating with the rise and fall of the cost of diesel, according to Ahl.
Although the Northern California lot attracts mostly politically progressive customers–including actor Peter Coyote, who bought a 2006 Volkswagen Jetta TDI last fall–Ahl also sees a fair share of shoppers who vote to the right.
*I have sold to conservative Republicans just because these cars make economical sense,* he said. (Ahl Motors’ only other salesman has a mobile phone ringtone that exclaims, *Democrats piss me off,* whenever Ahl calls.)
Whatever the political motivation of buyers, the longevity and fuel-efficiency of diesel cars is a key selling point for Ahl’s customers.
An odometer clocking 100,000 miles may indicate old age for a gasoline engine, but that’s a sign of youth for diesel cars like Volkswagen TDIs, which are built to last for half a million miles.
*I have never seen such passion for an automobile that was not a limited edition sports car or a collector’s edition,* Ahl said. *They’re sporty, economical and they go forever.*
In tests by AutoWeek magazine last year, a Volkswagen Jetta TDI achieved 49.9 miles per gallon, besting the 42 miles per gallon of a Toyota Prius. With or without biodiesel, which hovers around $3.50 per gallon in California. Such fuel economy can translate to savings at the pump. Some of Ahl’s customers have come from as far as San Diego and Seattle intending to replace a hybrid Toyota or Honda with a Volkswagen TDI and run it on biodiesel.
======================= Cnet News
news.com.com/Diesel+dealers+provide+a+pipeline+to+rare%
2C+green+cars/2100-11389-6180409.html?part=dht&tag=nl.e703
tinyurl.com/ysee7s
Stings a little when an *actor* is better informed than I am.
Lots more in the story including ladies in the business who drive classy older bio-Caddys.
Damn, those folks are smart in Northern California. = TG
Back a few years ago some wacks from NATIONAL GEOGRAPHIC claimed to have come up with a model proving bird evolved from diosoars the model turned out to be a fake and now they same up with afunny little critter that looks kind of like a orangatang shaved yeah its just another PILTDOWN MAN