Going back a ways:
I’ll bet you didn’t know…
…the AK-47’s German background……
MP 43 assault rifle, the first production variant of the Sturmgewehr, left side……And, as commenter sdc notes, of course there’s more to it regarding the Kalashnikov.
Mark
Oil?
Imperial Russian Easter eggs?
I’ve seen pictures of some of the stamped weapons the Germans and Brits had. I would have been afraid to squeeze the trigger.
I could be wrong but the only similarity between this gun and the AK47 family is the concept of a small cartridge, selective fire, removable magazine rifle. Mechanically the Stg 44 is more like an FN FAL. The STG 44 is the weapon that the term “assault rifle” was coined from. I hate that term, mostly because the press use it all the time without any idea of what it means. Post war, H and K made a version of this weapon that had some success selling it around the world. I can’t remember its name, but I have handled it. Unfortunately I didn’t get to shoot it.
I also remember years ago my favourite gun shop would give away a Stg 44 if you spend 500$ buying a case of 8mm kurz ammo. They had been converted to semi auto only. I would have regretted not buying one except for the fact that the Canadian gun gestapo would have confiscated it anyway after C68 became law.
Anyone who played the original 3 Call of duty games noticed that…….LOL
MP43 was my pick up weapon of choice!
Perhaps the MP 43 and Stug 44 were a general inspiration but actually the AK47 was actually a slightly modified Valmet (Finland), which was inspired generally by the Stug 44.
Indeed the Isreali Galil seems inspired by the Ak but the proto-type Galils employed Finnish bodies.
The general notion was that engagement ranges did not required the full power 7.92 Mauser round and the 7.32 “kurz” round was effective. The volume of fire was helpful and good for morale. The rate of fire would creat supply issues but the smaller round did not affect the ammo load of the individual rifleman.
and while we’re at it, the MAG 58, known in the CF as the C6 GPMG, was also inspired by / derived from the German MG42.
Clever lads those boxheads….
The cartridge used is very similar. 7.65 x 39 for the AK and Siminov and 8×33 for the German. Not much for accuracy as I’ve seen. An 8 inch group at 80 yards is standard. The bullet is under weight at 123 grains and has a poor ballistic coefficient(BC). The ideal weight of a 30 caliber round is about 172 grains for a good BC. As compared to the M-16 which will do 3″ at 100 yards and only that poor because of the mil spec ammunition.
Only the m-16 is the rifle for open desert type of battle as was shown in Iraq #1. The AK round has the trajectory of a rainbow because of poor BC.
The 7.62 x 39mm Rus is a great bush deer round, ballistics are similar to the 30-30Win with the advantages of spire point bullets (before the advent of Honady flex tips).
Have mine in a Ruger Mini-30, because I have never been fond of the AK family (Galil the exception).
Posted by: Gunney99>
“Only the m-16 is the rifle for open desert type of battle as was shown in Iraq #1. The AK round has the trajectory of a rainbow because of poor BC.”
Agreed that in open desert country the 5.56mm nato round has far better ability to make it to it’s target than the 7.62x39mm. Also agree the M16 & M4A1 a superior gun than the AK certainly for accuracy.
My pick for open desert though would be a “new” M14 SOCOM in 7.62 nato (.308win). Better gun in sandy environments, match grade accuracy, plus plenty of energy remaining for any two legged threats at any distance you can hit em……………. Allot of units in Iraq and Afgan have requested these, and allot of surplus M14’s have made a revival from the dusty surplus bins.
Apparently Kalashnikov was given the Soviet Union version of the Order of Canada for his development of the AK-47,had he been a resident of a capitalist Nation,he’d have been a billionaire. Oh well,socialism ain’t perfect.
Once in a while you see modified AK-47’s for sale as deer rifles,though why anyone would buy one is beyond me. They usually ask just a bit less than you’d pay for a good Husqvarna 1600,in .308 or 30-06,and those Swedish beauties make the AK look like an old rowboat oar.
btw,if anyone has a Savage model 99 in .308 they want to sell, I’m in the market for one. Two of my brothers have the model 99,and I just can’t live without one now! 😉
Posted by: dmorris>
“Two of my brothers have the model 99,and I just can’t live without one now! ;-)”
He he, I have one, but could not live without it either!
Best compact deer rifle ever made! Bought mine used (excellent condition) w/scope 25 years ago for $300.00. Since then have removed the scope, and it has killed more deer than I care to mention (one shot drops). One small buck actually made it 30-40 feet once with a low straight on brisket shot +/- 120 yards. Bone fragmentation got it.
Knight: agree that the 7.62 NATO is much superior than the “GoferGun”.
However, the 30-30 is quite a bit superior to the 7.65×39. A 30-30 will shoot a 150gr bullet at 2300fps MV, still doing over 2000’s at 100yds and with adequate energy for deer sized game at 200yds. The 7.65×39 will shoot a 130gr at a velocity below 2200fps with factory loads. How their military cartridge gets 2400fps out of a 123gr bullet is food for thought, but it apparently baggs out at 400yds for effectiveness, or so I read.
Yushchenko put a fork in their sushi industry.
Posted by: Gunney99>
I’m with you 100% Gunney. The 7.62 x 39mm was originally designed as an anti personnel round inside 300m and not an “ideal” deer round at all.
I mention it because it does a good double duty as a small deer bush round. I call my Mini 30 my “camp gun”. I wanted a light carbine type semi auto, for camping/ fishing remote Alberta foothills and mountains. It’s worked out just fine, light to carry, durable stainless/ synthetic finish, easily maintained M14 style action and accurate enough. It’ll scare off or kill black bear if necessary, even put a deer in the freezer in worst case scenarios.
If strictly hunting, I go to an appropriate rifle/ round combination for what and where I’m hunting.
The AK is basically a Tokarev operating system slightly simplified, made to take ammunition similar to the MP43.
The genius of it is Kalashnikov didn’t invent anything. He took off the shelf tech and built the perfect Soviet assault rifle.
The boys at Valmet then perfected his work and made the perfect assault rifle. IMHO, anyway.
By contrast the Stoner Mattel 16 is overly complex, fragile and expensive.
–Performs the incantatsions to return the gun geeks to the gun blogs —
“By contrast the Stoner Mattel 16 is overly complex, fragile and expensive.”
I won’t argue that this is not an accurate statement, but having put many thousnads of rounds down range with m16 variants and enough out of AK variants to be familiar with them I would take an m16 any day, especially the newer heavy barrel models with optical sights. The rotating bolt locking mechanism and the gas tube look flimsy, but I have never had any problems with this rifle. With good ammo it is accurate and more then enough power to take down human targets. Although I am also a fan of the FN rifles and the M14 family of weapons. You might as well take on your foes from as far away as possible.
The main problem with the AK and all variants is weight and recoil. Most soldiers outside Western Europe and North America are under 170 lbs. The recoil on the AK kicks the shit out of them, and the ammo is heavy to carry. Nobody, even a big 200 lb farm boy, can keep the sight on an AK fixed after taking a shot without huge effort; and any prolonged shooting will cause serious flinch. The structure of the stock magnifies the problem. The AK, SKS, and all these third world wonders rattle your teeth … imagine the 120 lb ANA soldier behind these. No wonder you never see them actually aiming in the thousands of videos available.
The 5.56 rifles have virtually no recoil, shoot flatter than an AK, and allow for easier ammo transport. Furthermore, you can use optical sights and NOT lose your target from recoil. Take a 100 lb girl and she can shoot the 5.56 accurately without rattling her braces out … give her an AK or SKS or any such … and she’ll be bruised down to her hips after a dozen mags. For trained disciplined soldiers using ACCURATE suppression or pin point fire, the 5.56 is king.
So as far as modern militaries … AK = garbage unless a heavier bullet with penetration is needed; but those times are rare and hardball 5.56 can punch remarkably nasty little holes; and for penetration, there are many better choices than an AK anyway. It’s yesterdays piece.
I love my old cobbled-together Romanian AK pattern rifles. Minute-of-zombie accurate, and 125 grain soft points spell a very bad day indeed for soft targets.
Cjunk: I read that the 5.56 NATO is good out beyond 600yds with the new heavier bullet. That is it will still go through a helmet at that range. The heavy barreled version I had a chance to shoot had no recoil and was incredibly accurate with reloads placing groups well under 1″ at 100 meters. The gas operation of the action had more felt affect on holding the rifle than the recoil.
I’m with minuteman on the assault side of things.
Original AK’s are for novice third world child soldiers (spray & pray) and M16 variants for trained soldiers.
For civilian sheepdogs, any works just fine, I’m with the FN and M14 variant fan club also. The fact that most civilians do not have platoon support with full auto suppressing fire, my position is the Browning FNFAR as the most desirable gun that we can’t buy in Canada to have, for “All-round”.
Typo –
Meant Browning FNAR .308win.
I’m a fan of old warhorses in general, and have developed a particular fondness for the various incarnations of the Mosin-Nagant rifle. Rugged and rudimentary, the type is a worthy entry on any TEOTWAWKI short list. Capable of hunting practically any living land animal, and if for some reason the bullet doesn’t do the trick you can always incinerate them with the muzzle flash! Long barrel variants can pull double duty in an anti-satellite role. 🙂
Gunney99: Anyone who has coyote hunted with 5.56 knows that the things are incredibly accurate out to 400 yards plus. I don’t know how well they penetrate out past there, but supression and wounding is all it takes to win the fight.
I put up a video at my site a while back that was filmed by Taliban who were taking a pasting in a long range fight … the 5.56 rounds were whipping in like hornets from way out there … as the Taliban could hardly stick their heads up to shoot. A number were already laying around dying.
And like Knight 99 says, it’s a combat weapon that is part of an entire ensemble of toys that are brought to the fight. I raised my son on .30 cal weapons, so once he got to the army, shooting the 5.56 was child’s play and for him accuracy was natural. His buddies who’d never shot weapons quickly learned to qualify because they weren’t dealing with rude weapons like the AK or any 30 cal.
For hunting I love any of the .30 cal weapons though, with the 300 mag, either short or long cartridge being my fav. because it’s good for just about anything that one will hunt in Saskatchewan. I ran a lodge at one time, and over the years got a good idea of what were ideal hunting rounds.
Myself, I hunted with a 338 mag for years, but found it unreliable at close ranges because of bullet failure; much like a 7mm mag I once owned (both were awesome out past 200 yards). I guess I should’ve invested in expensive bullets, but heh, why do that when a mid priced 30 cal bullet (308, 30-06, 300) virtually never fails at any range or velocity.
Cheers!
See? This what makes SDA different from the Toronto Star.
Posted by: Cjunk>
I agree .30 caliber rounds are my favorite also, if only for ease of barrel cleaning and bullet selections for hand loading.
My biggest boom stick is .300win mag – using 180gr Noslar Partition. If there’s an undiscovered animal to big for it lurking somewhere in the wilds of Canada we’re all in big trouble.
Anything bigger or smaller than .308win/ 30-06, is personal taste, a quest to be different, or some other innate fondness for nostalgia.
BTW, have never used any of the newer WSM stuff. Wonder what anyone else who has thinks about it?
Some summary material on the subject: http://www.quarry.nildram.co.uk/The%20Next%20Generation.htm
Cheers
Kate, you got that right. It has been a pleasure to follow the exchanges above.
J.M. Heinrichs>
Good link J.M! That does summarize the topic well. I’ll read it in more detail when I have more time.
I do know that SWAT teams in the US helped develop the new 6.8SPC Rem as a compromise between the lack of retained energy from the 5.56 and the recoil of 7.62 Nato. It is a make sense compromise cartridge from that viewpoint.
My issue with it is, if you’re too wimpy to handle a .308win round in combat, maybe you shouldn’t be there in the first place. The 7.62 Nato variant is also under-loaded compared to modern hunting .308win loads. I mean my wife can shoot .308win without issue using light to moderate padding, what’s up with these modern day soldiers? I can shoot .308win all day everyday in my Browning Bar at the range and never develop a flinch.
Many of the old Vietnam vets were horrified when the 5.56nato first came out, many never converted.
Of the two major efforts at compromising between 5.56 and 7.62, I’m more enamored of the 6.5 Grendel. It seems that 6.8 is closer to obtaining some modicum of “officialness” though.
Posted by: KevinS>
“I’m more enamored of the 6.5 Grendel. It seems that 6.8 is closer to obtaining some modicum of “officialness” though.”
Sounds about right! There are a surprising bunch of commercial guns out in the 6.8SPC now. I never knew much about the 6.5 Grendel before this post, it indeed looks like a superior round. I would question the reliability with a full auto considering the extensive bottle neck, but I’m sure they’ve worked that out.
J.M. Heinrichs summary article had some good tables containing the 6.5 Grendel, obviously it is a long range performer. In fact the article seemed to only focus on the long range energy retention of military rounds; I think it missed a beat somewhat with not covering the advantages of close range weight retention & sectional density for barrier breaches. i.e. cars, windshields, heavy cloths, body armor etcetera. Sure a 70gr. 5.56 does a better job than say 55gr, but neither gives the confidence of a +165gr .308 through obstructions.
Knight 99 – for the most desirable gun that you can buy, take a look at the Springfield Armories M1A. Its a new manufacture M14. You can get it in the cheaper regular version,r the more expensive National Match version. You can also get cheap chinese knock offs, although I have no idea whether or not they are worth the money.
The Soviet Union was famous for copying Western designs and putting them into domestic production, without paying any annoying royalties. Many Soviet era automobiles bear a striking resemblance to American cars of the 1940’s. During WWII, large numbers of American autos were shipped to Russia, which were duly copied and put them into production later on. In some cases, certain models were produced well into the 1970’s with few modifications.
The HK-416
All the accuracy of the M-16/M-4 coupled with the reliability of the AK-47.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ObXZMepn3SI
Lower receiver and ergonomics is same as M-16/M-4, upper receiver changer to fit gas/piston cycling system similar to how Ak-47 works.
Integrated picatinny rails on forestock/shroud to receive same accessaries as M-4 does.
Western armies using the current M-16/M-4 systems could upgrade to the HK-416 by simply purchasing upper receiver/barrel components and fit them to their older lower receiver/trigger group sections.
Actually I did know.
The MP 43 was the truly the worlds first assault rifle. It concept was so unique that not only did the term Sturmgewehr (assault rifle) stick, every army in the world uses a rifle based on it.
It is not supposed to be a deer rifle; it is designed to kill other human beings at normal combat ranges. Combat in 43 was not like it was at the Somme in WW1.
Some interesting trivia. The MP designation, which stood for ‘maschinenpistole’, was a decoy to allow the rifles development as both the army, and specifically Hitler, were only interested in developing machine guns with the limited resources Germany has at the time. The rifle was so popular when it was tested that everyone overlooked the little MP deception.
sturmgewehr has more in common with AR than with AK IMHO
Oz: Yeah, no thanks. Gas piston ARs are of dubious utility – fixing a non-problem with additional complexity.
Aaron: How do you figure?
(Me, I think it has more in common with the CETME and G3 series; not only because it’s literally their ancestor, development-wise, but because unlike the early AK and all ARs, it’s stamped-and-welded, not machined, for the receiver.)
Dennis:
ZIS=Packard
ZIM=Caddy/Buick
I was in Moscow in 56/57.
Mark
Ottawa
Speedy
[……I’ve seen pictures of some of the stamped weapons the Germans and Brits had. I would have been afraid to squeeze the trigger…..]
The Stens were never a reveered weapon however the Erma rippers and the MP43 and Stug44 were a reliable as any firearm produced under the stress of war.
Some wartime PPSh were really scary looking but reliable as a stone hammer.(all the barrels although crudely machined were chromed inside and out). “…designed by genius to be operated by idiots.”
Sigivald
Your opinion is surprising.
HK went the piston route because Eugene Stoner’s gas system is a nightmare….piping gas directly to the bolt-carrier….introduces fouling DIRECTLY into the lock-work. This why that ugly plunger on the right side is present to enable the breach to be slamed shut when fouling causes stoppages.
Do you know where I can get an airsoft version of this thing?