If Quebec politicians are not careful in this upcoming election, they could call into question the fiscal union that underlies the market’s expectation of potential federal support. The recent Italian experience should be a cautionary warning to Quebec politicians: Policies and rhetoric that undermine international investors’ confidence can quickly lead to higher bond yields, starting the vicious cycle of austerity and lower growth that could lead to fundamental questions of solvency.
h/t RB
Good one. I think it is to late for this warning.
“One must have a heart of stone to hear it spoken in earnest without laughing.”
“One must have a heart of stone to hear it spoken in earnest without laughing.”
Quebec isn’t the only province heading towards third world status. Ontario is close behind. Both provinces have squandered whatever wealth they had on unsustainable social programs. Combined with corrupt politicians and unions looting the taxpayers pockets, the only thing left for each province is inevitable bankruptcy.
So, seriously, I’m supposed to be worried that if quebec voters elect a govenment intent on playing the old game, that would pressure the federal government to reduce or seriously restrict the flow of federal funding….
Really…?
Anybody else worried about this….outside of Montreal I mean?
ok and your point is?
“…Quebec has avoided Italy’s predicament because it is part of a fiscal and monetary union within Canada…” and because they are guaranteed equalization payments as a permanent ‘have-not’ province. I am expecting the election to turn on the “Quebexit” question, but voting to get off the gravy train? Not likely.
Come on frogiste! Such a proud Marxist-trained contrarian and that’s all you have?
Surely I’m not the only one who really couldn’t care less anymore about the political machinations inside la belle province?
We need an Israeli/ Palestinian style border fence separating Quebec from the rest of Canada. Of course a North/ South Korean border would be preferred, if we could muster the extra costs.
The welfare savings alone would easily pay for the personal and high-tech surveillance/ armaments with the Israeli style.
We could also take some of those unexploded land mines from places like Bangladesh and Sri Lanka then line the border quite easily.
If people would just pull their heads out of their @ss’s and think a little we could find dozens of cost effective ways to take care of this problem.
Que ndp stooge
We figured you wouldn’t get the point.
Your province isn’t paying for it’s own social programs.
Time for you guys to start.
Oh, can’t afford them…?
That’s too bad, guess you’ll have to raise your provincial taxes, or start axing some programs.
Your choice. Notice how getting more funding from the national govenment in Ottawa wasnt an option?
Que ndp stooge
We figured you wouldn’t get the point.
Your province isn’t paying for it’s own social programs.
Time for you guys to start.
Oh, can’t afford them…?
That’s too bad, guess you’ll have to raise your provincial taxes, or start axing some programs.
Your choice. Notice how getting more funding from the national govenment in Ottawa wasnt an option?
Nobody in Quebec believes they are a subsidized by western Canada. They will deny that $8 billion of their provincial economy is not earned by them, that the province is like a junkie addicted to the Federal Transfer payments provided by blackmailing Ottawa with threats to leave.
Won’t work anymore. If they go down that path again, the response must be “take your share of the national debt and don’t let the door hit yer arse on the way out”
Quelle suprise: The delicate balance between extorting too much from Canada in federal transfers, and not getting enough to buy another provincial election, is proving difficult for Charest.
Given the leftward shift of all politics in Canada, it’s obvious that Quebec, always further left than the ROC, would have to move past social democracy and into open socialism. Simply demanding more of everything isn’t enough anymore, so the next Quebec leader – whether federalist or Pequiste – will need to ignore the absolute evidence of Keynesian theory failure in favour of more bread and circus spending.
Furthermore, when one considers the forces arrayed against any reformation of either Quebec’s pervasive graft, or the Constitutionally-guaranteed leverage that Quebec enjoys federally, the likelyhood of any party standing on a platform of fiscal restraint is zero.
The only viable options for the wanna-be premiers of Quebec would appear to span the range from extortion to nationalization.
No, but if you live outside of the Qu-On world you better be concerned. These crooks can damage your little economy into extinction. Dealing with Crusty Clark’s demented economic theory should give you a hint on how things will transpire, especially on trans-provincial trade, never mind inter-provincial trade.
I’m born and raised in Qu-On territory…I know how they think about anyone outside of their little balliwicks. Anyone in the mid-western provinces knows about that. Look how long it took to get rid of the CWB, sorta, maybe….damn it’s still there. Crow rates, NEP, fights with NFLD over power transmission, still being carried out today.
Remember Bob Rae’s welfare policies in Ontario – 50% of welfare payments came from other peoples’ paychecks under the financing deal with Ottawa, so people who don’t vote in Ontario got to pay for Ontario’s welfare recipients under Bob Rae’s NDP government.
I’d suggest reviewing your province’s deals with Ottawa on stuff like that, or the QU-Ons will pick your pockets to bail them out for the stuff you didn’t get to vote on provincially. They already do so, what will they want when they run out of money? More form the ROC.
But, if they leave, where am I going to get my cheap booze and pesticides?
“…all major parties are firmly committed to balancing the provincial budget… ”
Yeah right, for the last 40 years.
I have no idea how Pimco could discribe Quebec’s debt profile as stable. What am I missing?
I have been consistantly reading that the combined debt of Ontario and Quebec equals that of the federal government.
Remember good conservatives, Charest was a contender for the federal leadership before he went back to Quebec. He is like one of those lizards who change colour to fit their surroundings!
No can really believe that Mulclair isn’t rebuilding the Upper & Lower Canada axis that has repeatedly raped the West since before the country was formed. This time we will say NO!
Quebec is part of the fiscal union ? I thought they were just a money sucking black hole that despises the rest of the country for not putting them on a pedestal. They sure give “union” a bad name. Change that to worse name.
This is no time for the ROC to be smug. As the article says the international markets assume, unlike Italy, that there is a strong underlying union here (both monetarily and fiscally). But since Quebec uses Ottawa’s Lonnie and Ottawa has little control over their reckless entitlements then our Lonnie is at more risk than we want to admit.
Time for smelling salts and for Ottawa to impose some fiscal covenants on rogue provinces (esp. the “Qu-Ons”) that want to use our Lonnie.
Agreed, nomdeblog, this is no time for the ROC to be smug or sarcastic. Quebecers are heavily brainwashed; the consider that IF ONLY they paid no federal taxes, THEN, Quebec would be wealthy.
They simply refuse to accept the balance sheet, that the ROC gives far more to Quebec than Quebec’s federal taxes, and that Quebec’s socialist programs are unsustainable by Quebec, even if it had all that federal money.
Our occasional commenter, quebecois separatiste is a good example of that. Admittedly, his problem isn’t that he’s brainwashed. He himself claims that he is nothing other than a collection of physical particles, and this thereby means he has no mind and is unable to think.
But he also represents a large ratio of Quebecers, who have no ethical principles, and who regard the ROC as only a cauldron of money, which they insist is theirs to use as they wish. They are indifferent to any role for them in the Canadian federation and are hostile to any request that they might contribute to Canada.
PIMCO is right; Quebec’s inclusion in Canada as a political federation rather than only a monetary filiation is vital for its and Canada’s stability. But at the same time, the ROC taxpayers are fed up with Quebec’s selfish indifference to anyone other than itself.
ET: Quebec pays a lot of federal taxes.
The current Quebec state could easily function as it is now without the federal.
We could easily decide to have no army for the first 15-20 years (even more) to help. Do you realize how much the federal spend on defense each years. (it is billions and billions).
Quebec having no army and no defense spending would help offset the lost equalization payment.
It would send a powerful peaceful message to the world too.
oK, sweet, after reading the article and these comments I am somewhat happier that I am not alone when it comes to your Gov’t using your income as their personal cash cow.
,
Quebec has a lot of debt, but it hasn’t been getting worse. Ontario’s debt situation has gotten radically worse during the reign of Dalton. I’m actually more worried about the second problem.
My wife is from Montreal and her family lives all over Quebec. I love those folks and I wish them well. If as Quebecois ndp separatist says, that they can easily function without the federal then my response is; please do. keep in mind…no foreign “aid”
melwilde >
Agreed foreign aid from western Canada hasn’t helped Quebec out any more than it has Africa.
These people need to learn to stand on their own two feet if they are to achieve any semblance of free independent nations without sucking the teat of the First World.
quebecois – what does ‘a lot’ of federal taxes mean? After all, federal taxes are THE SAME for everyone right across Canada. The fact that your provincial taxes are high, is the decision of Quebec.
I know you are unable to think, but your comments are inane. If you could function ‘without the federal’ (and what do you mean by that) then, why does Quebec take over 8.6 billion in equalization payments from the full 14.4 billion alloted by the govt for that task? That’s 60% going just to Quebec.
Oh, and what about the tax abatement program on federal taxes that reduces the amount Quebecers pay to the federal govt?
So, I know that you are just a collection of atoms and cannot think, but are you aware that Ottawa transfers federal income back to Quebec? I know that you ‘think’ this is only about defense, but have you ever heard that the federal govt funds the universities – and that Quebec receives much more per student than, eg, Ontario.
Did you know that Ottawa transfers health care funds to Quebec, and also, funds road development, the St. Lawrence shipping route, unemployment and disability, and etc.
Without all this money, which you now say is not needed by Quebec, you couldn’t have your miniscule university tuition, day care, retirement at age 62, …oh, and all those jobs for life of federal civil service that are located in Hull and in Montreal.
As for no army, we know that Quebec isn’t interested in helping people who live under dictatorships, but, others in Canada are, and therefore, send troops against the Third Reich and against the Taliban and Al Qaeda.
Try to think. Oh..sorry, I keep forgetting.
Quebecois NDP separatist, if what you say is so, then perhaps you can explain why the Quebec government tried to take over the Quebec military college in 1995. And why seditious pamphlets urging 22ieme soldiers to desert were circulated at Camp Valcartier just weeks prior to the 1996 referendum.
Unlike you, Jacques Parizeau was not a fool. He knew that any independent nation needs its own armed forces. Particularly since a newly independent Quebec would almost immediately be faced with insurrection in both Montreal and by the Northern Cree.
And don’t try to lie to me about the sedition. I SAW the literature you secessionists were circulating.
cgh: Try to find a more peaceful separatist movement in the world.
I mean seriously.
haha, I’m half-heartedly laughing, because I just read that Charest is attempting to buy votes with $100 to families to help with buying school supplies.
Let me rephrase that: Charest is attempting to buy votes with money from Alberta to help Quebec families buy school supplies.
I believe QNS might be right about not needing a armed forces if Quebec leaves. I believe most canadians would only heed a call to arms if they tried to re-enter confederation. Let the Indians have them. They (Indians) could shore up the provincial government just with the money from illegal sale of tobacco.Even in Northern BC everyone seems to be enjoyin the tax free status of this product and it could easily be their primary source of income. Because of their inability to recognise English as the language of the world they would be safe from American interests. Too much hassle and they already have enough wingnuts in California. Their language laws alone spell security. Just can’t see the downside if QNS gets his wish. I fully support him , even if he has no control over his thinking process.
We woz robbed. The referee playing twealth man for the Americans …. grrr#
quebecois, for the year 2009, the federal govt collected 39 and a half billion in taxes (income, corporate, gas, sales) from Quebec.
It spent over 53 billion, which includes over 8 billion in equalization plus 45 billion in such things as tax credits, unemployment, university funding, transfers to municipalities, all sorts of services and so on. That’s a difference of 13 and a half billion EXTRA coming from the ROC. Got that?
So, if you think that Quebec would be just fine on its own, then by all means, go for it. The ROC are, as you may have noticed, tired of the unprincipled and selfish greed of Quebec and its utter disdain for and indifference to others.
Peterj >
Hear, Hear!
I agree completely, let the Quebec Nation go to war with the First Nations and settle their land claims once and for all.
Once the dust settles the ROC can open a trade zone with whomever wins and we can sell them oil, wheat, whisky, medicine or whatever if they have something of value to trade in return.
Otherwise they’re on their own.
For the Readers Tips tonight, but is already early AM in this time zone and I need my sleep, so herewith.
Big victory over the forces of evil, with positive implication for our hero Tim Ball:
http://johnosullivan.wordpress.com/2012/08/01/breaking-courtroom-chaos-as-new-zealand-skeptics-rout-government-climatists/
@ eurefugee
Great link. Sleep well.
I like PIMCO. Own one of its stocks. Doing very, very well by it too.
When these guys talk, I listen.
Simple solution, do away with all transfer payments. Labour hungry areas will get the labour they need and need for services will be reduced in depressed areas, Win win…
fiddle >
I agree but it would not work as “seamlessly” as you have described.
There would be riots and they’d burn their cities to the ground. Ever see them after a hockey game, or threatened with paying for their own educations?
Sometime you just need to walk away from these places like we did in Rwanda. It sorts itself out like a recovering drug addict does once they hit bottom.
NDPPQ I like how you think, Quebec could forego a military for a few years. You are seriously reality challenged. Quebec has a total Provincial Sovereign Debt of around 500B, not counting its share of Federal Debts. You are getting over 8B a year in welfare from the rest of Canada, mostly Alberta’s Oil and Gas industry and you think things will just carry on. Have you not been watching what is going on in Greece. Quebec makes Greece look like a bunch of pikers. They have food line ups in Greece, and riots everyday. Their civil service has been gutted. The hospitals do not have medicine. And on top of that you will have to negotiate borders with the Cree, the Inuit and the ROC. You could even precipitate a civil war. And you also do not control the Loonie Ottawa does. You guys are in a huge mess brought on by the failed policies of socialism and welfare statism. You are about to get a kick in the nuts with a frozen boot delivered by International Investors that really don’t give a shit about your FU culture or Froggish Language rights. Get ready for a big dose of EXLAX and a big sh*t.
Quebec, a shining example of decades of socialism at work. Ontario will soon be as bad.
eurefugee, that link was great to read. Hopefully this case in New Zealand will help Dr. Tim Ball here in Canada.
There would be riots and they’d burn their cities to the ground.
Not a problem from where I stand.
Apparently the PQ has just declared war on Nfld over an oilfield in the Gulf of St. Lawrence:
http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/politics/elections/pq-would-battle-newfoundland-over-st-lawrence-oil-deposit-marois/article4465486/
“Quebec having no army and no defence spending would help offset the lost equalization payment. It would send a powerful peaceful message to the world too.”-QNS
Yup it would, that Quebec is a freeloader. Not willing to do its share. No military, not really a country. Nothing new but as others here have said the new and maybe bigger worry is Ontario. The Dalt has doubled the debt in 8 years to $260 billion…it’s insane. And our lame MSM ignores it for fear of resurrecting a cry for the return of a Harris-type regime to rescue us again.
Which brings us back to the question of did we learn nothing from the Greek debacle in terms of our currency being exposed to these reckless Qu-On governments? Time to update the constitution to fit a global currency with parasitical provinces able to sink it.
Jeez…no one has even mentioned the Quebec construction holiday that is just ending.
What other province can afford to shut down construction in the middle of summer for 2 weeks so the gang can go camping happy holidaying?
Just like the bunch of Euro-weenie-wannabes they are. Gimme. Gimme. Gimme.
Ralph at 2:29…Good point 🙂
QNDPS: Do me a favour and check the status of the Quebec Pension Plan. One hundred per cent funded I’m sure.
fiddle >
There would be riots and they’d burn their cities to the ground. – Knight
“Not a problem from where I stand.” – fiddle
Again agreed, BUT until we have proper borders and security in place, we risk millions of them coming over like the illegal Mexicans do into the US.
Need any more Quebecois anchor babies in Alberta, than we already have? I thought not.
Sometimes you need to pay a little welfare money to keep them on the plantations like they do in Detroit. Just for awhile mind you.
This is why we need to let them go, allowing them think they did it for themselves, and then quickly build big fences, sentry towers, surveillance drones, et al.
ET: There is more than money in life, do you know that?
You seem to only care about money.
Glengarrian:
“What other province can afford to shut down construction in the middle of summer for 2 weeks so the gang can go camping happy holidaying?
Actually Ontario couldn’t even afford to start up any construction this year…so…did all our roads funding go to Quebec too?
Quebeckie, without money, how could you pay for the bill for Internet usage with which you can attempt to tell ET off?
As Homer Simpson’s brain once said: “money can be exchanged for goods and services”.
How will the rest of Canada support its founding provinces after they go into the tank?
Or will it want to?