So, while Chief Spence, and others, may long for “nation-to-nation” discussions, there is I think a genuine question as to whether there’s enough of Aboriginal culture that has survived to even dream of that lofty status, or if the culture isn’t irreparably damaged already. Smudging, drumming and the like do not a nation make.
They don’t a “culture” make, either.
Smitherenzes “Seems they derived their culture from Hollywood. Same as the rest of North America.”
The bush Indians sure love that prairie Indian culture. A high point in bush culture was catching a few weasels – meat on the table.
Okay, now I want to take a short breather from the Chief “Holding-out-her-hand” gongshow, near Ottawa. It’s laughable/pathetic, but getting tiresome. Can you say Cadillac Escalade? WTF.
Enough of that.
What I am truely impressed by, are the touring Native Dancers throughout North America. Real athletes if you ask me. And frickin awesome costumes, WOW!
Appearing locally, the Yellow Ribbon Dancers put on a good show, that takes a lot of dedication, and hard work. I tip my leather bikers hat to them. It is sad sometimes, I don’t get to see them, but the dancers in general RULE.
Okay, back to Chief “panhandling-on-the-road-while-world-zooms-by”.
balbulican >
“The problem is that Canada is reneging on its treaty and claims obligations”
Please cite the Treaty that say’s we have an obligation to build them homes, community centers, sports arenas and give their chiefs millions of dollars each year to spend at their leisure.
Legitimate question, maybe it’s in there somewhere you seem to be an authority on the matter although Neil Edmondson is absolutely correct with his specific reading of the Treaty in question.
Neil asked: “I’m willing to be persuaded that this is the case; would you kindly cite which clause in which Indian treaty the Crown has reneged upon?”
Certainly. To take the example I am most familiar with, Nunavut Tunngavik Inc., the Inuit organization mandated to implement the Nunavut Land Claims Agreement, held that the Crown had failed to implement either the letter or the intent of the NLCA, with particular concerns expressed regarding the general duty to consult, and particularly the provision of Article 23 (which dealt with training for and employment of Inuit). Both Canada and the Inuit agreed on the selection of Justice Thomas Berger as conciliator. Berger initiated a comprehensive review, and concluded that the Crown had failed. This conclusion was subsequently confirmed by the Auditor General’s review of INAC’s implementation measures. )(http://www.aadnc-aandc.gc.ca/eng/1100100030982/1100100030985.
Note that this was Paul Martin’s government, not a Conservative Government.
Subsequent to the Berger report, NTI launched lawsuits on DFO’s failure to consult on the setting of turbot quotas and refusal to enter into second term implementation negotiations, both required under the Claim.
For additional examples, you may wish to review some of the material produced by the Land Claims Agreements Coalition, or some of the excellent work by the unfortunately de-funded National Centre for First Nations Governance.
I have several FN friends — who are all tax-paying, off-reserve small business owners and employers in my area — who find what Spence and her ilk are doing deeply shameful. I have no doubt that many others feel the same way but are bound by a bond that transcends anything we as descendants of non-tribal culture can easily understand. The real shame in all this is that any hope for further understanding winds up buried beneath an ever deepening burden of anger and mistrust. Conditions favoured by those who profit from such animosity.
” I don’t mean to sound pedantic but virtually every single thing you said was factually inaccurate. Please, take a moment to educate yourself before spouting off on these matters. ”
Uh…thanks for the tip. And sorry, but you do sound pedantic. My comments are based on roughly thirty years of work in Nunavut and with First Nations.
The quote from Jose is, I’m afraid, a quote from Jose. I’d suggest you take it upon your self to correct him, but he’s dead. For a discussion of the terms “indigenous”, “Aboriginal”, and “First Nations”, may I suggest you invest a few bucks in a recent book called “Original People, Original Television”, which I edited? You may find it helpful.
” I’m mindful of NCLA but the Inuit claim to the land simply does not meet the test of aboriginal title.”
I’m afraid you’re mistaken. The government of Canada decided that, in fact, it did, and negotiated the NLCA on that basis, grounded on ITK’s land use and occupancy studies from the seventies.
“This simply isn’t true. While some agriculture was practiced in some parts of Canada…”
You’ll note that this is a response to a comment on “North American” Indians?
“The Nootka has some of the richest land in Canada but still had summer and winter camps (and did not grow food in any meaningful way) – no permanent occupancy of land, in other words.”
Sorry, I don’t think you quite grasped my point. Aboriginal occupancy of the land wasn’t based on lots and surveys. In larger, southern settlements, communities occupied fixed locations, but hunting and harvesting always incorporated a larger land use pattern. Where the primary food sources were seasonal (caribou migrations, char populations, floe edge, berry harvests, etc.) the community often migrated through a cycle of fixed locations.
“virtually every single thing you said was factually inaccurate.”
I hope I’ve helped clarify my points. This is an interesting conversation: let’s focus on substance and not sparring, shall we?
“Please cite the Treaty that say’s we have an obligation to build them homes, community centers, sports arenas and give their chiefs millions of dollars each year to spend at their leisure.”
Uhh…I can’t think of a single treaty that says “we” have an obligation to give a chief “millions of dollars each year to spend at their leisure.”
Which First Nation specifically are you referring to?
The text of all the major treaties and Land Claims Agreements are online.
“I have several FN friends — who are all tax-paying, off-reserve small business owners and employers in my area — who find what Spence and her ilk are doing deeply shameful.”
Interesting. I have a First Nations wife, in laws, colleagues, and co-author — including -paying, off-reserve small business owners and employers in my area — who find what Spence and her ilk are doing deeply inspiring. So much for the homogeneity of Aboriginal cultures, eh?
I myself am ambivalent. “Idle No More” seems to me to be tapping a deep current of resentment against the assimilationist policies of both the Harper and Martin governments, and successfully connecting with the flagging “Occupy’ movement. But I fear they’re losing focus. It remains to be seen whether this can all successfully be channelled into an effective challenge to Bill C-428, or whether it gets diffused.
Yes they had a culture at one time…warfare to capture slaves, and people they could torture for a couple of days to stop the boredom….hunting(men),fishing (womens work) now its nothing to do;; and no were to do it in:::after all the government gives the toilet paper and i’m not sure, but wipes their ass also…thats another lost skill….when the beer store opens in morning could be an upper….and when it closes a downer…they have been blessed with tons of money and still have no direction….are they worth more of the taxpayer money when they produce nada????….many moons ago they more than likley made these people disappear…on the way to the gods….with help…////
babulican – I specifically and very purposely asked for an *Indian* *treaty* – not an Inuit land claim, and the difference is non-trivial.
I’m familiar with the case you cite, which of course is neither Indian nor a treaty per se. The duty to consult arises from case law, by the way, not any treaty or legislation, so a failure to consult does not actually break a treaty, or even land claim.
I’ll ask again: there are many Indian treaties – surely you can find one which the crown has not honoured? Two hundred-plus years of treaties and you cannot cite a single instance?
Because I can easily find instances of Indians breaking Treaties: most numbered treaties specifically prohibit blockades, yet Indians did just that 10 minutes from my (Treaty 8 land) home this week. Treaties also compel Indians to be law-abiding – I think we can agree this is not the case on a broad scale.
Take, say, the Rideau Purchase treaty covering Ottawa. Ever hear of it? I don’t blame you, it’s the treaty that time forgot. Indians simply don’t recognize (ie they are reneging upon) the treaty. The Nisgaa “final” agreement is still being litigated by Indians. Many Natives simply do not recognize the Douglas Treaties. Etc., etc.
This matter is far too grave for careless and unfounded accusations of broken treaties: I’ll have to insist that you promptly provide evidence for your claim – which verges on blood libel – or withdraw it.
I like your comment, which makes sense to me. Prior to reading it, I had been thinking that the AFN (I hadn’t really figured on your angle) would itself find Chief Spence’s current, er, endeavour (along with a few of the other recent endeavours of its “members”, including Sarnia and Caledonia) a bit “counter-productive”, as they say.
The AFN has been trying, in IMArmchairOO, to fashion a younger, more professional image to appeal to demands for same from both within and outside its community. Ms. Spence’s current effort flies in the face of all of that, I’d say.
Ms. Blatchford’s comparison to the hunger strike of Bobby Sands is unfortunate. Say what you will about Bobby Sands, he seemed considerably more true to his cause than Ms. Spence does, and he nevertheless still managed to help Mrs. Thatcher in her cause, at a difficult time for her.
In this regard, I still remember Danielle Hamandjian reporting that she was picked up at the end of her long flight by Ms. Spence’s Escalade and driver (others above have mentioned the Escalade). The reporting of this information seems to me to have gotten Ms. Hamandjian promptly kicked off CTV National News for three months, if not longer. The image of a, um, corpulent person (with conjugal ties to the financial manager of the donation fund) going on a hunger strike to demand a meeting that she has no right to demand seems to me to be an image that the AFN, as it tries to navigate the minefield, is not likely seeking.
“: I’ll have to insist that you promptly provide evidence for your claim – which verges on blood libel – or withdraw it.”
Sorry, land claims are modern day treaties. Thanks for the tacit acknowledgement that the Crown was at fault in its failure to honour the provisions of the Nunavut Claim, though.
“Blood libel”? Sorry, I don’t respond well to conservative hysteria, nor to orders. Do your own digging. Want some hints? Try Mikisew First Nation, or Bigstone Cree Nation, or any of the other FNs forced to take legal action in order to force the Crown to honour its obligations.
As for “blood libels”, Neil – have you read the vileness in this thread – the clichés, the contempt, the stereotyping? Perhaps you might direct some of your rigour in that direction as well?
” … precisely which ‘books’ do you want to see ‘opened’ for audit?”
Precisely the books which record how much Chief Spend spent on herself (Cadillac Escalade and driver, for a start) and her nearest and dearest and how much she spent on the rest of the Native band on her reservation. It would appear, given “the appalling conditions on the First Nation, specifically the state of the alleged houses, which in too many cases were over-crowded dilapidated shacks and tents wholly unsuitable for a James Bay winter,” that she was feathering her own nest/shack/tent while neglecting the safety, health, and well-being of those whose lives she as the Chief is, supposedly, to take some responsibility for.
I would like Chief Spend to enlighten us as to how much of the taxpayer dollars allotted to her band by the government each year has been spent on her and how much on others and just how those dollars have been spent. She needs to show the public how much government-allotted money has been spent on infrastructure, on maintenance, on improving the quality of life — not of her and her kin but — of the members of her band of which she is the “Chief.”
All of that would be a good start. The optics stink and Chief Spend knows this, which is why she’s pulling this desperate ploy of a hunger strike, to make it appear that she’s the victim. What garbage. The members of her band have been victimized by her profligate spending and, might I add, so have Canadian taxpayers. Our money doesn’t grow on trees, you know. Many Canadians can’t afford a car or, if they can, they drive Toyotas, Fords, Chevys they’ve worked for and paid for themselves, not Cadillac Escalade SUVs, which start at $81,000. Many Canadian families make nowhere near $81,000 as a yearly wage.
So, the books I’m precisely asking the Chief to open are those that itemize and justify her expenditures. I suspect that those books aren’t “available.”
balbulican, do you acknowledge that the system of reserves, which are public lands owned by the government of Canada and not legally available to private native development, are a serious problem for native well-being?
For example, Treaty 9, which deals with Northern Ontario, like other treaties, is a legal document whereby the native people surrender their right and title to the land, with only the right to fish and hunt where feasible, left to them. BUT, they are not to interfere with ‘the white man’s development or use of these areas.
The reserves are set aside for their use BUT can be appropriated for public use. For this, each person was given eight dollars and an annual sum of four dollars. Nothing was said about inflation.
A school was to be built with the government paying for all costs.
Do you agree that a basic problem is that a reserve land base nullifies any meaningful economic mode? They can’t set up a private capitalist business. Yet, they can’t live by hunting and gathering; the land base isn’t there and the population is too large for that mode. Therefore, the government has to maintain the people living on the reserves essentially by welfare; that is psychologically disastrous.
Do you agree that essentially confining a people to an economic mode that is outmoded and inadequate in these modern times and thus obliging them to live on welfare is a mistake?
I suggest, again, getting rid of the reserves, paying each person a Settlement, and enabling assimilation.
NO, don’t fall apart; I don’t mean cultural assimilation; I mean economic assimilation. Move into the modern world economy; set up private enterprises. Keep your heritage as a cultural attribute, just as people from Germany, Russia, England, do the same in Canada.
And again, there is no such thing as First People Ownership of land. Land use is always political and never genetic. Peoples have always migrated and moved into other tribe’s domains, so any resentment over such actions is dubious.
As for the chief’s books, since it’s taxpayer money, then, all details including her expenses, must be public. And justified. After all, this income isn’t from her own work but is a taxpayer benefit.
“Interesting. I have a First Nations wife, in laws, colleagues, and co-author — including -paying, off-reserve small business owners and employers in my area — who find what Spence and her ilk are doing deeply inspiring.”
And extremely lucrative too, eh? You should be ashamed of yourself.
truenorthist, balbulican really outed himself, didn’t he?
I might find the more-than-questionable tactics of a person who’s sending work my way “deeply inspiring” too, especially if the source of those highly lucrative jobs was in jeopardy and I felt a need to defend said person. Otherwise, “deeply inspiring” has an inauthentic ring to it.
I noted that comment also, but looked at it a little differently. If they pay taxes and employ people then they are part of the solution. To those on the reserves, those very people that Balbulican was lauding would be considered as part of the problem. As I noted in my rant above, they are apples (the term used back home was “MacIntoshes”). They may be red on the outside, but they’re white on the inside and hated on the reserves because of it.
Balbulican – you responded at 7:17AM “Sorry, land claims are modern day treaties. Thanks for the tacit acknowledgement that the Crown was at fault in its failure to honour the provisions of the Nunavut Claim, though.” Words have specific meanings. It you tried that switcheroo in a court you would be laughed out and your case dismissed. Your original statement was “The problem is that Canada is reneging on its treaty and claims obligations” A treaty is signed and agreed upon by both sides. A land claim is a negotiating stance that only one side agreed upon. They are very different. It is the same as the difference between loving sex and rape, if only one side wants it to happen that way then it’s not consensual.
Balbulican, are you interested in how to stop their ghettoization, or just here to throw rocks? Yes, there are individuals who have indian ancestory who are doing well. They are irrelevant to the current discussion. If we were talking about the culture of dependency and disintegration of the black family in the US and someone came in giving the examples of Spike Lee, Walter E Williams, Condoleeza Rice and Michael Jordan then I would point out that IMHO they are outliers that have become successes in spite of the systems around them instead of because of those systems. And then we’d return to the real discussion because the outliers are just that: outside of the main body that is under discussion.