Two souls, to go.
What, exactly, does “pay as you go” mean?
And where is the $11,000?
58 Replies to “Why Is There Always A Big Screen TV?”
Isn’t this a recurring theme? I have heard of this happening many times. The small municipalities near reserves have volunteer fire departments whose members work for nothing or next to nothing. I am not sure if there is an expectation that they get up in the middle of the night for no pay to go fight fires for people who are too lazy to get off their asses and help themselves. All it takes is training. A fully functional 25 year old fire engine can be purchased for all of $ 10,000 or so. All the used equipment is also next to nothing. They might also want a tank truck full of unfrozen water ready to go.
So why don’t they ask for some of that foreign aid that goes to Africa and parts of India and China?
You would think that the Nuclear countries don’t need it as bad as the First Nations apparently do.
Reminds me of a reserve in Alberta where they were ‘given’ a brand new firetruck. Come to use it during a fire, someone had taken the engine water pump from the truck to use on their truck
Meaning, the truck couldn’t go anywhere without overheating. I won’t get into brand new (as in more than one) $400,000 combines (back in the 90’s) rusting away on a half cut section because something broke and no one bothered to fix it. Just got another one. How? Don’t know.
Same with the new cedar sided houses a band got. Within a year the cedar siding was stripped for firewood.
While sad two kids passed away, more has to be said about the Loon Lake Fire Dept not responding period.
Whether right or wrong, someone pulled the plug on the phone, but it shows how frustrated whities are becoming dealing with reserves.
I’m actually on the side of the Loon Lake Fire Dept here. This reserve is just outside of the village, but with a village of 400 people, they don’t have a lot of extra money to put out providing services for someone without a contract or without being able to pay for many months. It’s obvious that the village was upset about something to cancel the contract outright, and as such not provide the services.
The question is whether the Chief and Finance person are playing silly bugger right now in the hopes that they will seem innocent in this story.
““It all boils down to lack of services,” he said. “We don’t get the same funding as everyone else — maybe that could have stopped this, we don’t have any services on the reserve.””
that is laughable especially since they probably haven’t complied with transparency acts to show where their money goes.
@Johnbrooks no nothing needs to be said about loon lake. they took the appropriate actions. giving this band another handout would not have taught them anything. yes the deaths are unfortunate but the people of that reserve should expect it by failing to plan. I will not be surprised the next time a similar event occurs.
what I do find astonishing is that the individual 300 feet away didn’t see anything going on at 1 am when he let his dogs out.
Where is the fire hall? If the taxpayer has been providing $11,000 for the past two years and the band was paying Loon Lake $5,000 where is the missing $6,000 per year?
I’m willing to bet that there was no functioning smoke detector in the house. Smoke detectors are much cheaper than coffins.
Amicus, I would have to disagree on your ‘appropriate actions’ comment. Appropriate means the fire department needs to do what they volunteered to do. Loon lake isn’t a big reserve, I’ve driven through it on my way to Pierceland, it’s not like driving to the next county.
The legalistics of who, what, where, when can be solved later, but you seem to miss the point two kids died because of either frustration, bone heads, or bigotry.
Sugar coat it as much as you want, it is still a failure to provide services, whether past due or not.
However, I will agree on the guy 300 feet away can’t help or see anything at 1am, let alone other neighbours, Loon Lake reserve is part of the town.
I am a long time volunteer fire fighter and this is the way it works in northern BC. We are mandated to provide fire protection inside a specified boundary. Everyone inside that boundary pays taxes that provides all the necessary equipment to fight fire under the required Worksafe BC and NFPA standards. We can’t fight fire or provide emergency services outside those boundaries without specific permission from the various governing bodies like the Provincial Emergency Program. We have agreements with other municipalities to help in case of a large disaster but we still must have equipment and crews available locally at all times.
The reserves here in BC have some of the finest fire fighting equipment available if they want it. They just ask the Feds. Money is no object. What they do with it is their business. I’m sure Sask is similar.
I’m betting the village budget is a tiny fraction of the reserve’s budget. I remember a situation where the Edmonton Fire Department sat and watched a house burn, believing it to be in a neighboring county. Of course the county fire department didn’t respond because it had recently been annexed by Edmonton.
Extremely sad that two children perished in this incident and I would never wish that on any family.
However, perhaps these tards on the rez could have provided for or contracted for fire protection services from their audited 16 million surplus. http://pse5-esd5.ainc-inac.gc.ca/fnp/Main/Search/DisplayBinaryData.aspx?BAND_NUMBER_FF=396&FY=2013-2014&DOC=Schedule of Remuneration and Expenses&lang=eng
And last time I looked, fire protection was not offered in any treaty. You get what you pay for….or the feds pay for anyway.
Wanna play betcha we never hear of this again?
Just out of curiosity, @johnbrooks, would you feel any differently if the Village of Loon Lake didn’t have the resources available to put their volunteer Fire Equipment on the street? I’m not saying that this is what happened in the past, but how many times could the Village be stiffed before their own ratepayers are affected by a lack of resources being poured into a reserve that can’t or won’t return the favour?
One of the other commenters mentioned a failure to plan. Very few agreements of this type would be canceled without discussion, and for all we know, the cancellation was mutual because the band council didn’t see that they were getting as many fire call-outs as the $5000 retainer paid for each year.
It’s tragic that 2 children died in this fire, but the blame doesn’t only fall on the Village, it must also fall on the First Nation as well… Especially if they are receiving twice as much as they were paying to the village in funding for these services.
Revenue
Village – 2013 – $ 448,225
Reserve – 2013 – $ 16,598,033
That’s a multiple of 37 times the revenue.
The 7 councilors paid themselves a total of $ 744,186 but can’t pay a few thousand for fire protection. They should be in jail for manslaughter. That’s almost twice as much as the village total revenue.
yah john, next fire in that country of Africa or were ever, these volunteer fire departments should git their asses over there
it’s about time ppl like you learned that these fools, Indians, piss their money away and then ask for more or cry victimhood when things go wrong. They need to grow up and become adults. This isn’t the first sad act that’s happened to some children and it will not be the last, and it will keep happening till some grow up. I’m sick and tired of getting 15K/annum while these useless a$$hole pi$$ millions, if not billions away.
“Chief Richard Ben told the Canadian Press that he thought they were still paying the Loon Lake department for firefighting services. That was echoed by the band’s finance director Kurt Schultz”
How is it possible that the chief and his finance honcho didn’t realize that they were not paying for firefighting services? They are either liars or incredibly incompetent and have let their constituents down badly. Either way, they should be removed from office immediately. No questions asked. As for suggestions that lack of funding or bigotry played a part in this tragedy, such arguments are tedious and oh so predictable. The blame falls squarely on chief and council who were provided with the means to prevent this disaster but chose otherwise, either through dishonesty, laziness or stupidity. All qualities not befitting leaders.
A couple of things come to mind,
I’ve been involved with negotiating similar agreements in Northern Ontario, After the agreement is reached between an organized municipality (With a Fire Department) and a reserve. Aboriginal Affairs adds the cost to the bands annual budget, and its the bands responsibility to transfer it to the neighboring fire department equipped town. As such, I suspect the funds for the Fire Agreement went missing or it was decided that they weren’t going to pay.
Second, am unauthorized response to a neighboring community that isn’t covered with a working agreement is a recipe for disaster. The Fire Department isn’t covered by Workers Comp and they’ll deny any injury claims, The municipal insurance package further does not cover the vehicles, men nor any subsequent civil actions against the municipality or the Fire Department. Civil actions for a perceived poor response would be levied against the individual FFs and they would be on the hook for legal costs to defend themselves.
Population
2011 – 314 in village
2011? – 923 on reserve / 1398 members
The village has $ 448,225 / 314 or $ 1,427 revenue per capita
The reserve has $ 16,598,033 / 923 or $ 17,983 revenue per capita
Anyone who suggests a poor village that also has a large Indian population and looks after itself owes anything to a well funded reserve ain’t dipping both oars in the water.
Reasponding to the fire was the right thing to do.
No one seems to have asked where the parents were during this event. The fact the father carried the bodies out in the morning when the fire occurred around 1:00am indicates child abandonment or criminal negligence to me.
Exactly, both times.
I have been involved in these types of negotiations, and I suspect that if the band did not want to pay the annual retainer and opted for an agreed upon fee for service that this will be on paper, unless, and this happens often, the band did not even send a negotiating team.
The interview with the mayor and fire chief indicated that the fee for service bills went unpaid. The mayor had the paperwork to back up his words.
Two dead babies, barking dogs and a house on fire 300 feet away, “pay us you racists”, said Councilor Shut-the-door-keep-the-money-and-go-to-bed.
biffjr and robins111 have it right and well said, both comments.
These deaths are on the heads of the reserve leadership and bureaucracy.
Johnbrooks I think you missed the point or there was miscommunication. the firefighters are for the village that is not part of the reserve. they didn’t volunteer to take care of the reserve unless they were paid to do so. the reserve didn’t pay them. they were under no moral or lawful obligation to go help.
yes I feel bad about the kids but no I don’t think the village did anything wrong saying we also have limited resources and you don’t get to have us pay for and do what you the reserve are unwilling to pay for or do.
“Protection was once offered by the Loon Lake fire department nearby. However, fire chief Larry Heon said it was discontinued in May 2014 after the band didn’t pay them for services rendered. When asked who was currently responsible for putting out fires on reserve, Heon said “don’t have a clue; I don’t think anybody is.” Heon explained that the band once paid a $5,000 annual retainer for fire protection, but that had been cancelled in favour of a “pay-as-you-go” service. He said he was informed of the fire Tuesday morning when a 911 call was automatically routed to him, but his crew didn’t go. “If you don’t pay your bills you get no service, right? Just like if you don’t pay your gas bill, you get no gas,” he said.”
Gotta disagree with that. Unless you’re sure some other fire service is responding, you go and get the money later. It’s like turning away a seriously ill person at a hospital because they don’t have medical coverage/insurance. When catastrophic events occur they need to be deal with immediately and let the admin and finance follow somehow. Did they ever think of sending a bill directly to Indian Affairs?
Anyway, the whole thing stinks to me, though tragic, but honest mistake has happened here. Yes, if money is being stolen put the perps in jail.
k99
my understanding of the article is that they RECEIVED government money in the sum of $11000; but somehow there is no fire department on retainer.
from what i can tell, this seems like criminal negligence on part of the Chief and the Band’s bean counters.
cheers
I could only care less if they were muslim indians.
Indians continue to prove that they are too stupid and corrupt to live in the modern world ….
End Indian apartheid and close the reserves …. force them into reality and stop giving them more than 12 billion of our money every year … not to mention the cost of incarcerating so many of them and then there’s the health care they all get for free … I never understood their lack of dental hygiene since they can get all that for free too …. this never-ending indian horse shyt makes me sick.
Unfortunately, there is absolutely NOTHING we (the royal we) can do for these unfortunate kids, and others like them so long as those who are responsible for them are negligent. PERIOD!
These are the circumstances where something can actually be done:
1) dissolve all First Nations self-governance, and hire private 3rd party firms to manage the Band’s finances, governance, and whatever other services they require.
2) inspect all homes at all reserves, and evaluate these reserves; and, immediately remove all children from unsafe situations whether they be unsafe homes, or reserves without Fire Protection Services, or bands of wild dogs, ect…; also, we must remove all cultural considerations when evaluating the safety conditions of said reserves.
It’s really quite simple, and obvious.
no, two kids died because of the negligence of those responsible for the custody and safety.
the aforementioned fire department had no obligation, nor relationship with the band in question. you might as well blame GWB or Obama as they had equal obligation to this reserve.
cheers
Sure,it’s obvious, but as with any other obvious problem, the only people who have the authority to do anything are our elected officials.
And NONE of them have the cojones to even state what the problem is concerning Reserves and the Indian question, let alone do anything about it.
The official political line is ” Aboriginals are only suffering because of the long term effects of the Residential Schools”,regardless of whether they attended those schools.
If you can’t say,”Islam” you can’t begin to solve the problem,same with “Indians”.
so is putting ‘boots on the ground’ in Iraq and Syria; but as you know, it is much more complicated than that.
how do you know that this process hasn’t happened already, and been repeated?
reasonable thinking dictates to me that the fire department has already been stiffed on a ‘pay as you go’ call. folks typically will not ignore a call for help UNLESS there is a history.JMO
without a legal agreement, there is no obligation.
furthermore, volunteer fire depts are not held to an oath like doctors.
with all due respect, you are simply making stuff up.
cheers
The band receives 16 million a year. They received an earmarked 11,000 per year for fire safety. The father did not die but instead carried out the children.
A few questions,
Where were the parents?
What happened to that fire money if not used?
What happened to the Chief looking after the reserve?
Where does the 16 million go every year?
Why should a volunteer fire department go to another nation?
If the band refuses to pay, when they are given money to do so, why should people volunteer their time?
The blood is on the chief’s hands and no one else’s. You can’t give your money to people and the be forced to work for them at the same time for free. That’s called slavery.
Your research into the facts are helpful.
However, to the left overs in Parliament facts don’t matter. They are driven by ideology which overlooks their responsibility to reform corrupt governance on many but not all reserves.
Here is what a vote for the NDP gets you these days, zero interests in facts.
None of the MSM are going to even do the research that you did. Sunnews would raise it if they were still going.
Hopefully Rebel TV will one day be high enough profile to take over that role.
SDA readers can beat the MSM any day of the week. http://globalnews.ca/video/1837249/heated-mp-ashton-demands-to-know-why-saskatchewan-toddlers-died-in-fire
I have to ask, where were the parents?
If the fire and smoke were strong enough to overpower and kill two children, how is it that the father was able to extract the children from the building in the morning?
Am I reading it wrong? It reads like the father may not have been in the home during the fire.
What was the cause of the fire? Who were the responsible adults in the home at the time? What was there physical/mental state at the time? Was there a working smoke detector? All valid questions, non judging fact finding. When we get these answers, then the responsibility can be assigned.
hence my comment…we can’t do anything for them(the kids) so long as those responsible for their safety are negligent.
i think we agree
“What, exactly, does “pay as you go” mean?”
Pay As You Go Plan: When there is a fire on the reserve, the victims call 911, and then the Reserve “fire department” (which is some Councillor’s cell phone) calls the Loon Lake fire department, who then come and put out the fire. Which usually costs something like a thousand dollars, because ten guys plus two trucks for two hours costs that much money. Loon Lake fire department then bills the reserve council for the service. And that’s the end of it. No money changes hands, no payments get made, nothing happens.
Ever.
This is the Pay As You Go Plan. Sounds like a sweet deal, eh?
There’s no probably about it, AmicusC: before the transparency act a band member had to get the Canadian Taxpayers Federation to dig into the finances in order to determine how much the councilors were all paid (Answer: tax free equivalent of $120,000)
Late in the day the RCMP are charging someone for Facebook threats against the Fire Chief. So the Indians want a village of 400 people, with volunteer fire fighters to come to the rescue of a small town of 950, mostly unemployed, living off the TAX dollars of WHITEY. Meanwhile the Indian Chief and Councilors take in a cool 750,000 in tax free dollars.
Here is a message for INDIAN CHIEF Richard Ben, The reserve that you govern is the owner of the house that burned. Put some F’n smoke detectors and Carbon monoxide detectors in the houses. Anywhere else in CANADA the LANDLORD has to do this and check them on a regular basis.
Stop asking the people, (TAXPAYERS), for money out of one side of your mouth and telling the TAXPAYERS to but out of Indian business from the other side.
Message to Perry Bellguard, FSIN and the NDP, F-U you losers and stop blaming me.
Message to Residents of any and all Reserves, we the taxpayers,(WHITEY), pay enough money to you people. Get a backbone, grow a pair and start fixing your own problems.
THE QUESTION STILL NEEDS ANSWERING, WHERE WERE THE PARENTS ON A TUESDAY NIGHT?
It is sad that the toddlers died in the fire. Not trying to sound crass, but it will come across that way. They were probably spared a a continued childhood of misery.
Where did someone get the idea that the reserve was part of the village. Google maps tells me that they are 20 km apart and some of that on gravel road. If the fire happened in the middle of the night separated from the FD by winter conditions, even if they called and had a contract, that house is going to be a heap of smoldering ashes by the time a volunteer fire crew gets there.
Also, I thought we lived in a capitalist society with socialist overtones. How come we allow these numerous communist enclaves to exist. All band counsels seem to be run like a politburo and the residents live like peasants. These outcomes are not surprising but rather a feature.
Band councillor Dean Mitsuing “It all boils down to lack of services,” he said. “We don’t get the same funding as everyone else — maybe that could have stopped this, we don’t have any services on the reserve.”
WTF, You rotten piece of crap. First off the chief and council take 750,000 dollars of the 16 million they receive from taxpayers. The town of Loon Lake claims it has a letter from Chief Richard Ben cancelling the contract for fire services. Then the reserve has a bunch of grass fires in 2013 and 2014 and they will nor pay Loon lake.
Check out Dean Mitsuing Facebook Page, he isn’t as poor as he wants us to believe.
Will the people on this reserve rise up and throw out these corrupt Indian politicians for taking 1/16 of the money given to the reserve for there own salaries?
dj, well said.
The whole Federal Indian Affairs business is one big ponzi scheme.
as I said in the past. it is time to close indian affairs. if we must for some treaty obligation feed, clothe and house Indians on reserve property make it the individual’s responsibility by giving a pension directly to those over 18 living on a reserve. make it modest, livable and tax free. we, the taxpayers could save over five billion dollars with such a move and create more responsible people.
As per CTV, Makwa *has* a fire truck but it was last seen “in the bush”. Any SDA readers know any updates? A photo of a burnt out fire truck would be much appreciated.
Apparently the reserve has a fire hall, put to other uses, and a fire truck that can’t work in the winter – probably because it freezes up if not put in the fire hall, put to other uses. They also get something like $36,000 per year to run the show.
Loon Lake has 4 volunteers and probably a lot smaller budget. Also, what does a smoke detector cost? 10 bucks?
Time that people like me learn? Ha! I’ve lived beside and worked with folk from the Res, so your point of me not knowing lacks anything valued.
You admitting you are sick and tired shows the bigotry I”m trying not to bring into the conversation.
I am not saying the blame lays with the Village, alone, both are responsible.
both are bone headed, a typical reservation/local town mess I’ve grown up and see on a daily basis.
The Res needs whitie’s infrastructure and the Whities town need the Res money. While one can argue it is Whities money, not so, try to get it back.
Well one can argue your point of course but these communities are next door, literally on the same street, so it isn’t like they had to drive 20 miles to get to the reserve.
The point is there is more here than what meets the eye and bigotry seems to come out in times like this.
It’s always the same thing, over and over again. The band chiefs and councillors pay themselves extremely generous salaries while the people whom they are supposed to serve go without. The Journal de Montréal had a similar story recently about a FN school commission in northern Quebec. Its schools have a 73% dropout rate, the highest in the province, so what do the school commissioners (all FN) do? Why, go to Hawaii, of course! Yes, they attended a conference in Honolulu, stayed a 5 star resort on Waikiki Beach and ran up a huge bill for restaurants and bars. The dropout rate hasn’t improved, but someone had a great time.
Isn’t this a recurring theme? I have heard of this happening many times. The small municipalities near reserves have volunteer fire departments whose members work for nothing or next to nothing. I am not sure if there is an expectation that they get up in the middle of the night for no pay to go fight fires for people who are too lazy to get off their asses and help themselves. All it takes is training. A fully functional 25 year old fire engine can be purchased for all of $ 10,000 or so. All the used equipment is also next to nothing. They might also want a tank truck full of unfrozen water ready to go.
So why don’t they ask for some of that foreign aid that goes to Africa and parts of India and China?
You would think that the Nuclear countries don’t need it as bad as the First Nations apparently do.
Reminds me of a reserve in Alberta where they were ‘given’ a brand new firetruck. Come to use it during a fire, someone had taken the engine water pump from the truck to use on their truck
Meaning, the truck couldn’t go anywhere without overheating. I won’t get into brand new (as in more than one) $400,000 combines (back in the 90’s) rusting away on a half cut section because something broke and no one bothered to fix it. Just got another one. How? Don’t know.
Same with the new cedar sided houses a band got. Within a year the cedar siding was stripped for firewood.
While sad two kids passed away, more has to be said about the Loon Lake Fire Dept not responding period.
Whether right or wrong, someone pulled the plug on the phone, but it shows how frustrated whities are becoming dealing with reserves.
I’m actually on the side of the Loon Lake Fire Dept here. This reserve is just outside of the village, but with a village of 400 people, they don’t have a lot of extra money to put out providing services for someone without a contract or without being able to pay for many months. It’s obvious that the village was upset about something to cancel the contract outright, and as such not provide the services.
The question is whether the Chief and Finance person are playing silly bugger right now in the hopes that they will seem innocent in this story.
““It all boils down to lack of services,” he said. “We don’t get the same funding as everyone else — maybe that could have stopped this, we don’t have any services on the reserve.””
that is laughable especially since they probably haven’t complied with transparency acts to show where their money goes.
@Johnbrooks no nothing needs to be said about loon lake. they took the appropriate actions. giving this band another handout would not have taught them anything. yes the deaths are unfortunate but the people of that reserve should expect it by failing to plan. I will not be surprised the next time a similar event occurs.
what I do find astonishing is that the individual 300 feet away didn’t see anything going on at 1 am when he let his dogs out.
Where is the fire hall? If the taxpayer has been providing $11,000 for the past two years and the band was paying Loon Lake $5,000 where is the missing $6,000 per year?
I’m willing to bet that there was no functioning smoke detector in the house. Smoke detectors are much cheaper than coffins.
Amicus, I would have to disagree on your ‘appropriate actions’ comment. Appropriate means the fire department needs to do what they volunteered to do. Loon lake isn’t a big reserve, I’ve driven through it on my way to Pierceland, it’s not like driving to the next county.
The legalistics of who, what, where, when can be solved later, but you seem to miss the point two kids died because of either frustration, bone heads, or bigotry.
Sugar coat it as much as you want, it is still a failure to provide services, whether past due or not.
However, I will agree on the guy 300 feet away can’t help or see anything at 1am, let alone other neighbours, Loon Lake reserve is part of the town.
I am a long time volunteer fire fighter and this is the way it works in northern BC. We are mandated to provide fire protection inside a specified boundary. Everyone inside that boundary pays taxes that provides all the necessary equipment to fight fire under the required Worksafe BC and NFPA standards. We can’t fight fire or provide emergency services outside those boundaries without specific permission from the various governing bodies like the Provincial Emergency Program. We have agreements with other municipalities to help in case of a large disaster but we still must have equipment and crews available locally at all times.
The reserves here in BC have some of the finest fire fighting equipment available if they want it. They just ask the Feds. Money is no object. What they do with it is their business. I’m sure Sask is similar.
I’m betting the village budget is a tiny fraction of the reserve’s budget. I remember a situation where the Edmonton Fire Department sat and watched a house burn, believing it to be in a neighboring county. Of course the county fire department didn’t respond because it had recently been annexed by Edmonton.
Extremely sad that two children perished in this incident and I would never wish that on any family.
However, perhaps these tards on the rez could have provided for or contracted for fire protection services from their audited 16 million surplus.
http://pse5-esd5.ainc-inac.gc.ca/fnp/Main/Search/DisplayBinaryData.aspx?BAND_NUMBER_FF=396&FY=2013-2014&DOC=Schedule of Remuneration and Expenses&lang=eng
And last time I looked, fire protection was not offered in any treaty. You get what you pay for….or the feds pay for anyway.
Wanna play betcha we never hear of this again?
Hmmm….seems that link broke somehow. Hope this one works.
http://pse5-esd5.ainc-inac.gc.ca/fnp/Main/Search/FederalFundingMain.aspx?BAND_NUMBER=396&lang=eng
Just out of curiosity, @johnbrooks, would you feel any differently if the Village of Loon Lake didn’t have the resources available to put their volunteer Fire Equipment on the street? I’m not saying that this is what happened in the past, but how many times could the Village be stiffed before their own ratepayers are affected by a lack of resources being poured into a reserve that can’t or won’t return the favour?
One of the other commenters mentioned a failure to plan. Very few agreements of this type would be canceled without discussion, and for all we know, the cancellation was mutual because the band council didn’t see that they were getting as many fire call-outs as the $5000 retainer paid for each year.
It’s tragic that 2 children died in this fire, but the blame doesn’t only fall on the Village, it must also fall on the First Nation as well… Especially if they are receiving twice as much as they were paying to the village in funding for these services.
Revenue
Village – 2013 – $ 448,225
Reserve – 2013 – $ 16,598,033
That’s a multiple of 37 times the revenue.
The 7 councilors paid themselves a total of $ 744,186 but can’t pay a few thousand for fire protection. They should be in jail for manslaughter. That’s almost twice as much as the village total revenue.
yah john, next fire in that country of Africa or were ever, these volunteer fire departments should git their asses over there
it’s about time ppl like you learned that these fools, Indians, piss their money away and then ask for more or cry victimhood when things go wrong. They need to grow up and become adults. This isn’t the first sad act that’s happened to some children and it will not be the last, and it will keep happening till some grow up. I’m sick and tired of getting 15K/annum while these useless a$$hole pi$$ millions, if not billions away.
“Chief Richard Ben told the Canadian Press that he thought they were still paying the Loon Lake department for firefighting services. That was echoed by the band’s finance director Kurt Schultz”
How is it possible that the chief and his finance honcho didn’t realize that they were not paying for firefighting services? They are either liars or incredibly incompetent and have let their constituents down badly. Either way, they should be removed from office immediately. No questions asked. As for suggestions that lack of funding or bigotry played a part in this tragedy, such arguments are tedious and oh so predictable. The blame falls squarely on chief and council who were provided with the means to prevent this disaster but chose otherwise, either through dishonesty, laziness or stupidity. All qualities not befitting leaders.
A couple of things come to mind,
I’ve been involved with negotiating similar agreements in Northern Ontario, After the agreement is reached between an organized municipality (With a Fire Department) and a reserve. Aboriginal Affairs adds the cost to the bands annual budget, and its the bands responsibility to transfer it to the neighboring fire department equipped town. As such, I suspect the funds for the Fire Agreement went missing or it was decided that they weren’t going to pay.
Second, am unauthorized response to a neighboring community that isn’t covered with a working agreement is a recipe for disaster. The Fire Department isn’t covered by Workers Comp and they’ll deny any injury claims, The municipal insurance package further does not cover the vehicles, men nor any subsequent civil actions against the municipality or the Fire Department. Civil actions for a perceived poor response would be levied against the individual FFs and they would be on the hook for legal costs to defend themselves.
Population
2011 – 314 in village
2011? – 923 on reserve / 1398 members
The village has $ 448,225 / 314 or $ 1,427 revenue per capita
The reserve has $ 16,598,033 / 923 or $ 17,983 revenue per capita
Anyone who suggests a poor village that also has a large Indian population and looks after itself owes anything to a well funded reserve ain’t dipping both oars in the water.
Reasponding to the fire was the right thing to do.
No one seems to have asked where the parents were during this event. The fact the father carried the bodies out in the morning when the fire occurred around 1:00am indicates child abandonment or criminal negligence to me.
Exactly, both times.
I have been involved in these types of negotiations, and I suspect that if the band did not want to pay the annual retainer and opted for an agreed upon fee for service that this will be on paper, unless, and this happens often, the band did not even send a negotiating team.
The interview with the mayor and fire chief indicated that the fee for service bills went unpaid. The mayor had the paperwork to back up his words.
Two dead babies, barking dogs and a house on fire 300 feet away, “pay us you racists”, said Councilor Shut-the-door-keep-the-money-and-go-to-bed.
biffjr and robins111 have it right and well said, both comments.
These deaths are on the heads of the reserve leadership and bureaucracy.
Johnbrooks I think you missed the point or there was miscommunication. the firefighters are for the village that is not part of the reserve. they didn’t volunteer to take care of the reserve unless they were paid to do so. the reserve didn’t pay them. they were under no moral or lawful obligation to go help.
yes I feel bad about the kids but no I don’t think the village did anything wrong saying we also have limited resources and you don’t get to have us pay for and do what you the reserve are unwilling to pay for or do.
“Protection was once offered by the Loon Lake fire department nearby. However, fire chief Larry Heon said it was discontinued in May 2014 after the band didn’t pay them for services rendered. When asked who was currently responsible for putting out fires on reserve, Heon said “don’t have a clue; I don’t think anybody is.” Heon explained that the band once paid a $5,000 annual retainer for fire protection, but that had been cancelled in favour of a “pay-as-you-go” service. He said he was informed of the fire Tuesday morning when a 911 call was automatically routed to him, but his crew didn’t go. “If you don’t pay your bills you get no service, right? Just like if you don’t pay your gas bill, you get no gas,” he said.”
Gotta disagree with that. Unless you’re sure some other fire service is responding, you go and get the money later. It’s like turning away a seriously ill person at a hospital because they don’t have medical coverage/insurance. When catastrophic events occur they need to be deal with immediately and let the admin and finance follow somehow. Did they ever think of sending a bill directly to Indian Affairs?
Anyway, the whole thing stinks to me, though tragic, but honest mistake has happened here. Yes, if money is being stolen put the perps in jail.
k99
my understanding of the article is that they RECEIVED government money in the sum of $11000; but somehow there is no fire department on retainer.
from what i can tell, this seems like criminal negligence on part of the Chief and the Band’s bean counters.
cheers
I could only care less if they were muslim indians.
Indians continue to prove that they are too stupid and corrupt to live in the modern world ….
End Indian apartheid and close the reserves …. force them into reality and stop giving them more than 12 billion of our money every year … not to mention the cost of incarcerating so many of them and then there’s the health care they all get for free … I never understood their lack of dental hygiene since they can get all that for free too …. this never-ending indian horse shyt makes me sick.
Unfortunately, there is absolutely NOTHING we (the royal we) can do for these unfortunate kids, and others like them so long as those who are responsible for them are negligent. PERIOD!
These are the circumstances where something can actually be done:
1) dissolve all First Nations self-governance, and hire private 3rd party firms to manage the Band’s finances, governance, and whatever other services they require.
2) inspect all homes at all reserves, and evaluate these reserves; and, immediately remove all children from unsafe situations whether they be unsafe homes, or reserves without Fire Protection Services, or bands of wild dogs, ect…; also, we must remove all cultural considerations when evaluating the safety conditions of said reserves.
It’s really quite simple, and obvious.
no, two kids died because of the negligence of those responsible for the custody and safety.
the aforementioned fire department had no obligation, nor relationship with the band in question. you might as well blame GWB or Obama as they had equal obligation to this reserve.
cheers
Sure,it’s obvious, but as with any other obvious problem, the only people who have the authority to do anything are our elected officials.
And NONE of them have the cojones to even state what the problem is concerning Reserves and the Indian question, let alone do anything about it.
The official political line is ” Aboriginals are only suffering because of the long term effects of the Residential Schools”,regardless of whether they attended those schools.
If you can’t say,”Islam” you can’t begin to solve the problem,same with “Indians”.
so is putting ‘boots on the ground’ in Iraq and Syria; but as you know, it is much more complicated than that.
how do you know that this process hasn’t happened already, and been repeated?
reasonable thinking dictates to me that the fire department has already been stiffed on a ‘pay as you go’ call. folks typically will not ignore a call for help UNLESS there is a history.JMO
without a legal agreement, there is no obligation.
furthermore, volunteer fire depts are not held to an oath like doctors.
with all due respect, you are simply making stuff up.
cheers
The band receives 16 million a year. They received an earmarked 11,000 per year for fire safety. The father did not die but instead carried out the children.
A few questions,
Where were the parents?
What happened to that fire money if not used?
What happened to the Chief looking after the reserve?
Where does the 16 million go every year?
Why should a volunteer fire department go to another nation?
If the band refuses to pay, when they are given money to do so, why should people volunteer their time?
The blood is on the chief’s hands and no one else’s. You can’t give your money to people and the be forced to work for them at the same time for free. That’s called slavery.
Your research into the facts are helpful.
However, to the left overs in Parliament facts don’t matter. They are driven by ideology which overlooks their responsibility to reform corrupt governance on many but not all reserves.
Here is what a vote for the NDP gets you these days, zero interests in facts.
None of the MSM are going to even do the research that you did. Sunnews would raise it if they were still going.
Hopefully Rebel TV will one day be high enough profile to take over that role.
SDA readers can beat the MSM any day of the week.
http://globalnews.ca/video/1837249/heated-mp-ashton-demands-to-know-why-saskatchewan-toddlers-died-in-fire
I have to ask, where were the parents?
If the fire and smoke were strong enough to overpower and kill two children, how is it that the father was able to extract the children from the building in the morning?
Am I reading it wrong? It reads like the father may not have been in the home during the fire.
What was the cause of the fire? Who were the responsible adults in the home at the time? What was there physical/mental state at the time? Was there a working smoke detector? All valid questions, non judging fact finding. When we get these answers, then the responsibility can be assigned.
hence my comment…we can’t do anything for them(the kids) so long as those responsible for their safety are negligent.
i think we agree
“What, exactly, does “pay as you go” mean?”
Pay As You Go Plan: When there is a fire on the reserve, the victims call 911, and then the Reserve “fire department” (which is some Councillor’s cell phone) calls the Loon Lake fire department, who then come and put out the fire. Which usually costs something like a thousand dollars, because ten guys plus two trucks for two hours costs that much money. Loon Lake fire department then bills the reserve council for the service. And that’s the end of it. No money changes hands, no payments get made, nothing happens.
Ever.
This is the Pay As You Go Plan. Sounds like a sweet deal, eh?
There’s no probably about it, AmicusC: before the transparency act a band member had to get the Canadian Taxpayers Federation to dig into the finances in order to determine how much the councilors were all paid (Answer: tax free equivalent of $120,000)
Late in the day the RCMP are charging someone for Facebook threats against the Fire Chief. So the Indians want a village of 400 people, with volunteer fire fighters to come to the rescue of a small town of 950, mostly unemployed, living off the TAX dollars of WHITEY. Meanwhile the Indian Chief and Councilors take in a cool 750,000 in tax free dollars.
Here is a message for INDIAN CHIEF Richard Ben, The reserve that you govern is the owner of the house that burned. Put some F’n smoke detectors and Carbon monoxide detectors in the houses. Anywhere else in CANADA the LANDLORD has to do this and check them on a regular basis.
Stop asking the people, (TAXPAYERS), for money out of one side of your mouth and telling the TAXPAYERS to but out of Indian business from the other side.
Message to Perry Bellguard, FSIN and the NDP, F-U you losers and stop blaming me.
Message to Residents of any and all Reserves, we the taxpayers,(WHITEY), pay enough money to you people. Get a backbone, grow a pair and start fixing your own problems.
THE QUESTION STILL NEEDS ANSWERING, WHERE WERE THE PARENTS ON A TUESDAY NIGHT?
It is sad that the toddlers died in the fire. Not trying to sound crass, but it will come across that way. They were probably spared a a continued childhood of misery.
Where did someone get the idea that the reserve was part of the village. Google maps tells me that they are 20 km apart and some of that on gravel road. If the fire happened in the middle of the night separated from the FD by winter conditions, even if they called and had a contract, that house is going to be a heap of smoldering ashes by the time a volunteer fire crew gets there.
Also, I thought we lived in a capitalist society with socialist overtones. How come we allow these numerous communist enclaves to exist. All band counsels seem to be run like a politburo and the residents live like peasants. These outcomes are not surprising but rather a feature.
Band councillor Dean Mitsuing “It all boils down to lack of services,” he said. “We don’t get the same funding as everyone else — maybe that could have stopped this, we don’t have any services on the reserve.”
WTF, You rotten piece of crap. First off the chief and council take 750,000 dollars of the 16 million they receive from taxpayers. The town of Loon Lake claims it has a letter from Chief Richard Ben cancelling the contract for fire services. Then the reserve has a bunch of grass fires in 2013 and 2014 and they will nor pay Loon lake.
Check out Dean Mitsuing Facebook Page, he isn’t as poor as he wants us to believe.
Will the people on this reserve rise up and throw out these corrupt Indian politicians for taking 1/16 of the money given to the reserve for there own salaries?
dj, well said.
The whole Federal Indian Affairs business is one big ponzi scheme.
as I said in the past. it is time to close indian affairs. if we must for some treaty obligation feed, clothe and house Indians on reserve property make it the individual’s responsibility by giving a pension directly to those over 18 living on a reserve. make it modest, livable and tax free. we, the taxpayers could save over five billion dollars with such a move and create more responsible people.
As per CTV, Makwa *has* a fire truck but it was last seen “in the bush”. Any SDA readers know any updates? A photo of a burnt out fire truck would be much appreciated.
Apparently the reserve has a fire hall, put to other uses, and a fire truck that can’t work in the winter – probably because it freezes up if not put in the fire hall, put to other uses. They also get something like $36,000 per year to run the show.
Loon Lake has 4 volunteers and probably a lot smaller budget. Also, what does a smoke detector cost? 10 bucks?
Time that people like me learn? Ha! I’ve lived beside and worked with folk from the Res, so your point of me not knowing lacks anything valued.
You admitting you are sick and tired shows the bigotry I”m trying not to bring into the conversation.
I am not saying the blame lays with the Village, alone, both are responsible.
both are bone headed, a typical reservation/local town mess I’ve grown up and see on a daily basis.
The Res needs whitie’s infrastructure and the Whities town need the Res money. While one can argue it is Whities money, not so, try to get it back.
Well one can argue your point of course but these communities are next door, literally on the same street, so it isn’t like they had to drive 20 miles to get to the reserve.
The point is there is more here than what meets the eye and bigotry seems to come out in times like this.
“And where is the $11,000?”
I realize this was a rhetorical question lance, but I answered it anyways. 3/4 of a million annually in councilor salaries:
http://3edgesword.blogspot.ca/2015/02/makwa-sahgaiehcan-loon-lake-audit-finances–mitsuing-truck-fire-fighting-toddlers.html
It’s always the same thing, over and over again. The band chiefs and councillors pay themselves extremely generous salaries while the people whom they are supposed to serve go without. The Journal de Montréal had a similar story recently about a FN school commission in northern Quebec. Its schools have a 73% dropout rate, the highest in the province, so what do the school commissioners (all FN) do? Why, go to Hawaii, of course! Yes, they attended a conference in Honolulu, stayed a 5 star resort on Waikiki Beach and ran up a huge bill for restaurants and bars. The dropout rate hasn’t improved, but someone had a great time.