European governments have consistently shown that they will not pay for defending themselves. Why should American taxpayers continue to foot the bill?
However, despite increases in activity, there was no real increase in the size of the military forces within most NATO members. Their focus continued to be on internal domestic entitlement spending and supporting the maturation of the European “experiment.” The thought remained that the United States, then spending more than 4 percent of its GDP on defense and national security, would continue to cast its broad security blanket over Europe, where such spending quickly dipped below 2 percent of GDP as a whole.
Media spin alert.
No doubt that Mother corp will be working hand in glove with the PMO today to push the juthtin-standing-up-to-Trump-so-you-better-stand-with-juthtin-or-your-trying-to-undermine-juthtin talking point.
Which ain’t going to well when the fact is that we haven’t increased our defense budget to meet the commitment to fund to 2% of our GDP.
Any guesses how long its going to take juthtin to make an ass of himself at the NATO summit…..notice I didn’t say if.
Much noise about 400-500 Canadian personnel in Latvia and “battle groups”. This sort of chatter relies on essential civilian ignorance of all things naval and military, perhaps nowhere greater than in Canada.
An infantry battle group, even a full-up, well-equipped and balanced one, is an infantry battalion plus add-on capabilities, perhaps a thousand soldiers at most. A fully manned infantry division of three brigades can form NINE battle groups. Canada has no divisions, not a single one.* We have three understrength regular brigades, barely capable of forming and sustaining temporarily a total of perhaps six anemic infantry battle groups. By way of contrast, Latvia has a single light brigade of two infantry battalions. In other words, a country of barely two million people can field two battle groups, vice a country of 37 million that can only field six.
You bet we’re scrimping on defence.
* Don’t be fooled by Canadian territorial command nomenclature masquerading as divisions and brigades. For example, Fourth Canadian Division is not a field formation. It’s merely the headquarters over all army regular and reserve formations and units in Ontario. Similarly, 39 Canadian Brigade Group is simply the headquarters over all army reserve units in BC.
Most of those 400-500 troops are logistics (finance clerks, supply technicians, truck drivers, the officers whose specialty is logistics–moving stuff from Canada to wherever they are or buying stuff from local vendors) another big chunk of those troops are maintainers–the guys/gals who fix the vehicles, the weapon systems, the generators, etc)…only a small sliver of that number are actual combat troops ~150-160 (but a chunk of those guys will be HQ staff–not really in the fight either). To put it in perspective, we had 2500-3000 troops in Afghanistan of that group only about ~600 soldiers were actually in fighting positions–the 600 was the actual battle group who did the fighting (and most of the dying).
I’m sure they can cook some mean pancakes and throw back a few wobbly pops. That’ll show those Ruskies.
Sorry, no insult meant to the rank and file here, it’s just the laughable positioning and public pronouncements by his Gropeyness, and the shilling by his lapdog media “500 troops!!!!,!”
Pathetic and mind numbingly STUPID!
The CBC is already on it. The radio reporter this morning was completely ignorant of the NATO arrangement and the 2% commitment, stating that it was the Americans who didn’t understand the financial obligations of NATO and that they were trying to make it a “transactionary” alliance. What does that even mean? CBC speak for “its bad that the Americans believe they should benefit from NATO and that each NATO nation should pay its commitment.” My word but the CBC is a useless news organization, far better at Liberal propaganda.
Transactionary – likely means where its a venue to transact funds from North America to Europe.
Cause that global warming thing is starting to lose its ability to hide that it was created for redistribution of wealth.
“…a venue to transact funds from North America to Europe. …”
Should say from the U.S.A. to Europe. Not disrespecting the tiny handful of fighting personnel in the symbolic Canadian Forces nor the quality of the work they do, but it adds up to the square root of f*#k-all and is more than offset by our long-established national policy, strongly supported by generations of Canadian voters, of thorough neglect of the territorial defence of our country. The best strategy for the defence of U.S. territory includes projected defence of the entire continent. Canada thinks it can have a free ride so it takes it. President Trump is asking us to chip in for more than just coffee and donuts occasionally.
What is “CBC”?
Canada’s military spending from 1960 on…
https://www.indexmundi.com/facts/canada/military-expenditure
None of the additional military spending the Trudeau gov’t has promised will make a serious dent in Canada’s underspending.
Note the increase will be over 10 years….This is a nothingburger
I read that Trudeau senior spent more on the military than any other Prime Minister. Must be fancy math. Also, the biggest dip in spending (from your link) came in 1997 under the leadership of Jean Chretien.
Canada’s shame at being the world’s biggest cheapskates remains the nation’s only appearance at the top of any list of accomplishments.
The question you should ask is: why should any American (or Canadian) soldier risk being the last to die for Germany’s latest plan to dominate Europe?
Back on planet Earth, Europe is Russia’s sphere of influence and the Russian Federation has the right to remove by force, without apology or hesitation, any European government representing a meaningful threat to the Russian people.
That includes the governments of the “Baltic states,” which only exist to serve as parking lots for German tanks within striking distance of St. Petersburg.
No. No more. Tell the Germans that if they want to make Russia safe for Islam they can fight for her themselves—and wish Russia’s sons Godspeed on their next trip to Berlin.
And this time, no money for re-construction. On the contrary, haul the Germans off to Siberia to work off the untold trillions they owe Russia and Israel in damages for what they stole or destroyed last time, and give their land to Russian settlers willing to start new lives in the heart of Europe.
You want peace in Europe? Destroy Germany, not Russia.
Don’t agree with much.
However, one wonders at the usefulness of any military when you let the hoards in through the front gate. Coulter recently asked, what is the point of having a Space Force if you let yourself become a third world country.
In reply to A Russian:
Yes, let’s hear it for Mother Russia, hip hip hooray! Mother Russia can do no wrong, even when it was under Communist rule. She fought those damned Nazis, didn’t she?
Really, the Baltic States only exist for Germany? I was just in Estonia, and the anti-Russian sentiment was palpable. They stress that they have zilch in common with Russia, in language or culture. I am sure the same feelings are in Latvia and Lithuania.
Manifest destiny much? You really think Europe is Russia’s sphere of influence and the Russian Federation has the right to remove by force, without apology or hesitation, any European government representing a meaningful threat to the Russian people? Hell, even Hitler didn’t say that about Germany. Talk to the Austrians, Finns, Poles, Hungarians, Slovaks, and Czechs, and hear their opinions of that statement. What Germany stole or destroyed In Russia, in the course of one war, pales in comparison to what Russia stole or destroyed in those countries, with forty years of occupation. They were either under Soviet rule, or had to fight it off, and that’s why they harbor no illusions about socialism. And they all still hate the Russians, even the young ones who didn’t really live under them, but their families did.
A Canadian, you seem to like going full stupid. Maybe you feel that Canada is also in the Russian sphere of influence because artic ocean and all. Next time you open your pie hole, kick your brain into gear first, that is if you have one!!!
“Back on planet Earth, Europe is Russia’s sphere of influence …”
Hate to break it to you but somebody is cutting your crack with drano. Maybe change a supplier before sharing more wisdom?
LOL. Russia is probably going to break up in the next few decades. Might even end up getting ‘Crimea’d’ by China.
Love hearing the Liberals bleat when Harper was in charge about soldiers in our streets. I can not remember the last time I saw a soldier outside of Remembrance Day on a street. Scarce as hens teeth.
Occasionally I see one or two in uniform stopping at a Tim Horton’s or shopping at Wal-Mart, probably while in town on some official errand. But I expect you’d see a lot more if you lived in Ottawa. I believe about half the total strength of the Canadian Forces is made up of officers of the rank of major (and naval and air force equivalents) and above posted in DND office jobs in Ottawa.
Some fattys waddling around and a whole bunch that worry about nothing. JTF 2 is just outside the city limit. Petawawa is less than 2 hours away – where the real dudes hang.
And, of course, a fair share of NATO spending does not even take into consideration that the US navy guarantees the free flow of goods across the world’s oceans. Everyone takes the laws of the sea and the USA for granted. The social safety nets of all these countries including Canada, are also indirectly subsidized by the US tax payer.
I believe that one proposal Trump could table is that a new alliance of NATO members and other non-members where admittance is contingent on sustained defense spending of the 2% of GDP.
He could even start the ball rolling by having a side table meeting with those NATO members that have met the 2% and herald it as an alliance that is more than a reason for heads of government to go on a photo op.
“Who Should Pay for Europe’s Defence?”
Because they will, because anyone who proposes cuts to America’s bloated military budget will be tarred as a Merica-hater who wants to see her soldiers die.
While NATO member military contributions are too small, using spending %GDP or even nominal spending is a stupid metric. What if all the military obligations are met on a shoestring budget, or tons of money is spent foolishly?
Military capabilities are measured by experts. Money aside, everybody knows what forces can do what. Canada’s – with all due respect – can’t do much to even defend this nation, let alone help an ally.
Finland’s defense budget stood at 1.16% of GDP in 2014 i.e. $3.7 billion. If Finland, which has a direct border with uknowwho, can defend itself with $3.7 billion why does Canada need $18.9 billion?
If conservatives feel that the military is underfunded what’s stopping them from reaching into their pockets and contributing their own money rather than reaching into others’ pockets for other peoples money?
Can you show me the phrase misuse of the military on a conservative blog?
Who’s says Finland can defend itself, good luck with that.
Conservatives don’t feel, they think. Liberals feel. That is why our military sucks, because liberals feel that the raison d étre of gov’t is to buy votes by making sheeple. Conservatives know that the 1st obligation of national gov’t is defence.
Liberals have no problem with not just sticking their hands in our pockets, but telling us we love it when they also grope us.
BTW – I don’t consider harper a conservative. I don’t know what he was, but words like traitor come to mind — not conservative. He could have killed the CBC, but didn’t, could’ve audited liberal finances, but didn’t, could have appointed senators , but didn’t.
Well said, Frenchie! What a load of tosh by Jizzwan. As IF … the Finns are actually defending themselves with a price tag of 1% of GDP. That sum would buy nothing more than clean uniforms and white flags for their ‘armed’ forces.
And they cannot even defend themselves from the Muslim invasion … to keep the culture of their Socialist (nirvana) State … ‘white’. Now they are rapidly becoming a freeloader Socialist State in collapse.
with a price tag of 1% of GDP. That sum would buy nothing more than clean uniforms and white flags for their ‘armed’ forces
In 1776 irregulars on a shoestring budget went to war against the most powerful military force on the planet — and won.
Just wondering, do you need examples of situations when irregulars went into combat against regulars and did not win?
If you hadn’t noticed … we don’t fight with muskets anymore. Aren’t you leftists reminding us of that every time you want to dismantle the Second Amendment?
“In 1776 irregulars on a shoestring budget went to war against the most powerful military force on the planet — and won…”
Thanks to a lot of help from the other powerful military force of the 18th Century: France.
The war wasn’t won by “irregulars”; it was won once the American revolutionaries finally forged a regular army and, along with France, cornered Cornwallis in Yorktown.
More to the point about the Finnish Army, it relies on 20,000 conscripts who are paid a small stipend and are released after a year or so. Having only a small cadre of professional officers and NCOs means lower personnel costs in terms of pay, pension, expenses and so forth.
Also, check out the “strategic size” of Finland relative to Canada. Add to that the fact that the Finns tend to keep to themselves and don’t have overblown notions of their own importance on the world stage like Canadians do.
“Conservatives don’t feel, they think. ”
Good one!
I would reach into my own pocket if the Liberal government would take out both its hands first.
No problem , but the let’s apply those metrics to ALL programs .
hey Rizball, do you even know were Finland is. Do you know that they lost 10-11% of their land to the USSR in 1939. Do you know how they can cut corners on spending. If you had ever been there, as I have, you would know how stupid and uninformed you sound. There is NO comparison between the defense of the second largest country in the world with a very small country like Finland. Now back under your rock, fool!!!
Ok since nobody is stating the obvious, Austria and Finland were in unique neutral position after WWII agreements. Their neutrality was, and effectively still is, guaranteed by NATO. they in fact are and were free riding more than any NATO member. Without NATO they would be under Siberian boot.
You know it Rizwan so why would you be a demagogue about it? Is it because as long as the Western world maintains a degree of global military presence koranimals are kept on a shorter leash? And you would really like that leash to be longer, wouldn’t you?
Special Report: The Pentagon’s doctored ledgers conceal epic waste
LETTERKENNY ARMY DEPOT, Chambersburg, Pennsylvania (Reuters) – Linda Woodford spent the last 15 years of her career inserting phony numbers in the U.S. Department of Defense’s accounts.
Every month until she retired in 2011, she says, the day came when the Navy would start dumping numbers on the Cleveland, Ohio, office of the Defense Finance and Accounting Service, the Pentagon’s main accounting agency. Using the data they received, Woodford and her fellow DFAS accountants there set about preparing monthly reports to square the Navy’s books with the U.S. Treasury’s – a balancing-the-checkbook maneuver required of all the military services and other Pentagon agencies.
And every month, they encountered the same problem. Numbers were missing. Numbers were clearly wrong. Numbers came with no explanation of how the money had been spent or which congressional appropriation it came from. “A lot of times there were issues of numbers being inaccurate,” Woodford says. “We didn’t have the detail … for a lot of it.”
The data flooded in just two days before deadline. As the clock ticked down, Woodford says, staff were able to resolve a lot of the false entries through hurried calls and emails to Navy personnel, but many mystery numbers remained. For those, Woodford and her colleagues were told by superiors to take “unsubstantiated change actions” – in other words, enter false numbers, commonly called “plugs,” to make the Navy’s totals match the Treasury’s.
https://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa-pentagon-waste-specialreport/special-report-the-pentagons-doctored-ledgers-conceal-epic-waste-idUSBRE9AH0LQ20131118
Slick Willie knew this. He did nothing. He got a cut of the money stolen from the Pentagon.
Dubya knew this. He did nothing. He got a cut of the money stolen from the Pentagon.
The Former Occupant knew this. He did nothing. He got a cut of the money stolen from the Pentagon.
And you have the gall to bring up a five-year old news story to make TRUMP look bad?
and again you look just as stupid as rizball. You ain’t got a klue!!!
Face it, this is probably as good as it will ever get for Canada’s military. Our governments will continue to ignore and under-fund our armed forces because there is no great demand from our vote-rich urban centres to change things. So, instead of billions going to meaningful things like our armed forces, health care, and disease research, the funds are continually pissed away on an endless list of utterly useless, indeed counter-productive, programs by all levels of government.
Other than a bit of pro forma virtue signalling from the population and press, usually around Remembrance Day, there is simply no reason for turdo la doo or any other politician to stand up and say “I’m beefing up the CAF”. Indeed, with the anti-Yank/Anti-Trump sentiment that runs through the veins of a majority of Canadians, we can expect our lithping tit to turn this into popular support for the status quo.
Cold, hard facts folks: in the last federal election 67.4 percent of the electorate cast ballots for the Liberals, NDP, Greens, or the Bloc….and none of those parties were championing more funding for our Military. And Harper had a chance to improve things, but despite a commitment to reach NATO targets, our armed forces deteriorated on his watch.
And yet most of the CF voted Liberal.
As for myself … I would be happy to oblige the leftist admonition that … “America shouldn’t be the world’s policeman”. Fine with me … starting with all of Europe. As Trump asked this morning … why does Europe make Russia RICH €€€€€ by purchasing MOST of their energy from Russia … then ask America to defend them from Russia? Good question.
It isn’t just sourcing the energy but the vehicle of the sourcing. A pipeline can be shut down quickly and what next? At least with shipping terminals you can grab other supply if needed. A shut pipeline requires not only new supply but also new receipt and delivery infrastructure, or as Trump says, they own them.
Nahhhh … Putin would never use a commodity as essential as oil as a bargaining chip … oh no … Vlad is of impeccable character and would do what’s best for the EU.
Not to worry though, because the EU has MANDATED all EU nations become powered by 100% renewables by 2022! Soooooo progresssssssive of the EU. Nevermind that it’s gonna have to get a LOT more windy to meet their goal … smh
….If the Europeans cannot defend themselves and keep irritating Americans footing the bill, time -going to 70 years-for Europeans to put on their big pants and stop sucking the life of the American Taxpayer!!
And Touche, Kenji!!!! If WWIII started tomorrow, the US of A would not be the Arsenal of Freedom as it was in the last big one. If Russia turned off the energy taps Europe would succumb in a matter of months. The pimps that head up the European Union would be the first to sign the declaration of surrender, about twenty-four hours after they realized there would be no hot water for their showers and lattes. The same people that criticize America now would be demanding that America do something. There is an axiom that is as old as history, “If you desire peace then prepare for war!” A strong nation is only as strong as its ability to defend itself, when you relegate that defence to another you are no longer an independent nation. For too many years we have allowed ourselves to think that the rest of mankind is as benevolent as our southern neighbour and every so often Karma tries to tell us otherwise, but to our own eventual sorrow we don’t listen!
The EU attitude toward its own defense is patterned after Germany’s claim of having achieved 100% renewable energy ! Nevermind, they achieve this status by importing nuclear power from France, and oil from Russia … none of these non-renewable energy sources are located IN Germany.
The EU … imports … their defense from the American taxpayer … and then claims they are defending THEMSELVES by THEMSELVES. Brain dead Socialist tools.
“If WWIII started tomorrow, the US of A would not be the Arsenal of Freedom as it was in the last big one.”
The US served as the Arsenal of Stalin.
(Stop reading victors history. Victors history is to history what victors justice is to justice.)
Yes for Stalin too. But not primarily for him.
So whose WWII history should we be reading?
Are you feeling sorry that Germans who were great friends of mooselimbs lost?
AWESOME post Antenor and oh soooo True.!!
History is replete with this lesson….From the Greeks to the Romans to Yesterday, We never seem to learn it.
If anyone cares to look, Every great Civilization has gone thru this…
JJM and favill describe our military capabilities well. Well said.
Something that always stuck in my mind was in approximately 1997 when the commanding general of the western Canadian regional command in Edmonton spoke at our Supplementary Ready Reserve mess dinner and commented during his address that, (paraphrased) “The warring factions in the former Yugoslavia were better armed than the troops we had there to try and keep them apart”. I believe, if I recall correctly, General Lew McKenzie corroborated that in his book, “Peacekeeper: The Road to Sarajevo”.
Hopefully Trump tells them off good. However, everything will go right over the head of the pantywaist we have there as leader. Trudeau will probably mumble something about gender diverse troops.
Mike in his comment above is right. Russia has a lot of leverage over Europe with its control even over current oil and gas pipelines going into Europe.
So far, this morning, MY President is letting em have it! The most HONEST and TRANSPARENT POTUS in the history of America! He sits across the table from our wimpy NATO “Allies” … with the cameras rolling … and asks BLUNT, embarrassing questions about the EU’s inconsistent behavior and policies toward Russia. No backroom double-dealing and deception.
Trust me … THIS IS EXACTLY what the American people voted-for … a NON-politician, a NON-government bureaucrat, for President of the USA. A kick-ass truth teller. The Americans who voted for Trump are lapping this up … and since the LEFT has been completely unhinged since Bush was POTUS … we couldn’t give a shit about anti-Trump protests … and inflatables. It’s all been done … including waving bloody red hands in Condoleza Rice’s face.
Fabulous work Mr. Trump!!
“Who Should Pay for Europe’s Defence?”
Europe.
Gee, that was sure easy.
I was thinking Venezuela
Cuba, Si … Yankee, NO
OK, Observer …… answer this without a smarmy hypocritical answer. Who should pay for Canada’s defence?
We are among the worst of the deadbeats, for god’s sake
BCer666….the Joos?????
“OK, Observer …… answer this without a smarmy hypocritical answer. Who should pay for Canada’s defence?”
Canada.
Gee, that was sure easy, too.
Many problems with the alliance. Canada is the shining example of a fairly useless, top-heavy, brass-bloated ‘military’. You need nasty people with nasty weapons – peace-makers not keepers – in your force and they need state-of-the-art support. Canada has become a land of soft, ignorant, neo-Marxists who want the government to take care of their every need, wish and desire, and to make them feel safe in a risk-free land. Except where it really counts. PM Dressup never served, never would, never could. He doesn’t even believe we’re a country.
I think the order to return surplus sleeping bags is a classic example of how pathetic this country is. Seriously return sleeping bags because we’ve run out? Why not just dumpster dive at a PX in the US and get the ones thrown out after boot camp? Actually hang on that’s probably next. Want some kit soldier? Go dumpster dive in the states.
Since NATO contributions are based upon GDP, let’s look at what they are.
Here is a list of countries ranked by GDP: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_GDP_(nominal)
Canada is ranked #10.
Germany #4
Great Britain #5
The European Union as a grouping is #2.
It is worth a reminder that in dealing with percentages, X percent of Big Number (U.S.) is much larger than X percent of a smaller number (Germany). I could make other comparisons but you get the idea……….
Fine. Let the US pay 53% of the cost of NATO defense, and the EU plus Canada 47%.
Currently, the US is paying 71.7%. The US is therefore overpaying by 18.7%, or almost 180 billion dollars.
It is estimated building the wall on our southern border costs from $20B to $70B, depending on who does the estimating. The high end number is from the Senate Democrats, duh. Regardless, if we cut our NATO by only 7% to 64.7%, we will have the money to build that wall in just one year. And why shouldn’t DoD pay for it? That is an integral part of our national defense.
Canada’s spending is for Brassholes who do jack shit to defend the nation.
People, people ….
How do you think that the government pays for the “gender studies”, the “women’s studies”, the lbgxyz programs, the handouts here and there, the illegal immigrant invasion and all other such things.
The government takes it from the needed services and gives to the useless.
Remember this is social engineering on a grand scale.
Lev.. yer just “needling”, aren’t you.
We can have deaths by overdosing, but we can under equip our soldiers and put their live in peril. Lefties are truly stupid peoplekind, Right Rizball????
a brief history of deutchland’s effect of european history:
the final blow to the stability and expanse of the roman empire came in the form of the huns invading from the north, heralding the beginning of the dark ages.
ww i was the deadliest conflict in history at the time, with deutchland squarely in the middle of it as well as numerous other eager participants taking their cue from the huns.
ww ii eclipsed ww i in the level of devastation. ALL due to one former chancellor who oddly, wasnt a true german, jsut an austrian wannabe.
do we *really* want these people diktating terms regarding the desired, ummm, ‘configuration’ of the defence of europe?
An argument could certainly be made that the US is overspending on defence.
But even if that were convincingly argued, it would not change the fact that Canada is underspending.
Think of it this way…The ring of Socks:. When the Turd was told he was a sock puppet of the EU/UN he went out a bought himself nice new socks..The EU/UN are the Socialist sock puppets for Russia….Putin doesn’t wear socks.. The ring stops in Russia